Below is an interesting, although, hypothetical scenario by Paddy Reilly. It reflects his thoughts on what may happen in coming days, which is, of course, what this blog is all about.
I don’t agree with all of it, notably, I would disagree on one point. I think Unionism will realign, as suggested, but will coalesce into a single strong block in a new Ireland, probably around the DUP. As such it will exercise considerably more influence on a National level than it does currently in a UK context.
Anyhow see what you think.
“As I see it, somewhere in the middle of this decade Nationalists will begin to outnumber Unionists, at least in the second preference vote.
After this, politics will assume a 32 County orientation. Sinn Féin already has a 26 County equivalent, (and so have the Greens) so we know where they will go; the SDLP is obviously suited to Labour. The sister party of Alliance in the Republic is Fine Gael, and I always assumed that Alliance will eventually be subsumed by it, but Alliance insiders inform me that some Alliance voters may prefer to go with Labour. As these two 26 county parties never achieve power without being in coalition, it doesn’t make a lot of difference.
By this time the UUP will have largely been swallowed up by Alliance and the DUP, so that only leaves DUP and TUV unspoken for. Obviously these parties will persist till the very moment that partition is ended, and possibly even after, but I imagine that DUP/TUV voters, in a United Ireland, will be accounted for in a variety of different ways.
1) There are those who will withdraw from politics altogether. I imagine the Free Presbyterians will refuse to recognise the Irish state and go the way of the Reformed Presbyterians, making voting sinful and recognising no king but Jesus, no Republic but the Senate of the Elect. Equally sects such as the Brethren and Jehovah’s Witnesses will take off, catering for the same politics free stance.
2) There are those who will withdraw from Ireland altogether and will move to Scotland or England, by now different countries.
3) There are those whose employment, in a United Ireland, causes them to relocate to Killarney or Kilkenny: they may remain DUP voters in their hearts, but they will be unable to elect a T.D.
4) The fourth option is the strangest: I looked up South African history to find out what happened to the apartheid dealing National Party. First it renamed itself the New National Party: then, after getting nowhere, it joined the African National Congress! The very people it had most opposed and characterised as terrorists! Their reasoning was that they so desperately want to be in power, they are prepared to drop all other requirements in order to secure this advantage.
Of course the DUP and TUV could just soldier on as effective Independents in a 32 county Oireachtas; but this would involve them turning into a party whose purpose was not achieving power, which is unusual in politics.”
"We in coming days may be" 
What if the Ulster Unionist Party went out of Business? Well it’s voters would go one of three ways the liberals to the Alliance Party the mainstream and career minded to the DUP and the extremists to the TUV. Of course the last 14 years have not been kind to the UUP from being the natural party of respectable unionism to becoming a party with no MP’s no sense of direction no hope and no real leadership. To be honest if the UUP disappeared tomorrow very few people would miss it.
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The sister party of Alliance in the Republic is Fine Gael
Says who? It is true that a few politicians have crossed the floor in that direction, but FG has no formal links with Alliance, any more than it has with the SDLP or the UUP.
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Isn’t the most likely scenario for reunification simply the Belfast Agreement in reverse? A regional assembly and administration in the north-east of a united Ireland with the British acting as “guarantors” to the British minority left behind?
Considering the large number of “regional” (but not necessarily nationalist) political parties to be found in nation-states all over Europe a strong regionally-based ethnic Scots-Irish / Ulster-Scots / British political party in the north-east of a reunited Ireland would be perfectly normal. It’s unlikely to have formal links with any existing Irish nationalist parties since it will probably confine itself to the north with a degree of abstentionism at an All-Ireland level (initially anyway). I would also expect a more straightforwardly separatist “Ulster nationalist” party, the militant rump of whatever conflict will erupt around the British withdrawal (and long after that).
Northern Nationalist votes would probably split all over the place, though I would expect Sinn Féin to take the majority (for reasons of history, familiarity and regional communal security) and for it to use the north-east as a regional power-base. Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour will get their snouts stuck into the trough wherever they can (after some initial reluctance).
I can’t see the SDLP or Alliance surviving reunification, unless they become separate-but-affiliated parties linked to larger national parties like Irish Labour or Fine Gael (as in Germany and other places. Scottish Labour was looking at such a solution to its problems at one stage in relation to the national Labour Party in London).
Of course all this speculation is entirely dependent on how violent the Unionist reaction will be to the Yes vote for reunification. I suspect very, very, very violent indeed. Way beyond anything seen in the 1970s. Or 1920s.
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Seamas, I’m broadly in agreement with most of you’ve said, but I’m not so pessimistic about the likelihood of violence. That said of course, it would be irresponsible of us to ignore the possibility. Isn’t it then incumbent upon us all to lay the groundwork for constitutional change at some unknown date, so as to forestall any conflict?
And surely the best way to do that is to concentrate on healing NI’s internal divisions, so that it can survive whatever the future may hold.
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Yes, we should certainly concentrate on fostering better relations between the two communities in the North and between the two broader communities on the island. But, unfortunately, however successful such a process might be that does not remove or ameliorate the basic ethno-national tensions and conflict that exists and will continue to exist.
If that has not changed in the last two hundred years I cannot see any hope for substantive change in the next twenty.
An important point to bear in mind is the militarization of the British minority population in the north-east. Through the RUC/PSNI. UDR/RIR, BA/TA, etc. not to mention various paramilitary formations a substantial portion of the Unionist population in the North has some degree of military knowledge or training. To this is coupled the wide availability of legally and illegally held firearms.
Factor in dissident departing British Forces, the seepage of arms stocks to “irregulars” as the British withdrawal, etc, a scenario quite similar to that of conflict-era Croatia or Bosnia-Herzegovina begins to emerge.
I would not argue that violence is likely in the aftermath of a Yes vote. I would argue that is a certainty. The question is how it will be dealt with. My own suspicion is that it will be used an excuse for the continued British presence.
And not just by Unionists or the British.
If one looks back over speeches by Unionist politicians down through the last four decades, away from the glare of publicity, the unambiguous message has been one of no to a United Ireland in any and all circumstances, and at any cost. That includes a majority vote in favour.
There is no hint of a change in Unionist thinking on that.
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To be honest when you get to a certain age, theres no real pleasure in looking forward. I think generational changes mean that whatever vision I had of a United Ireland or merely something called The Future have all but disappeared.
In general I dont envy young people starting out. Its likely that civilisation hit some high point in the summer of 1967 and is now in decline.
Look at Spain. Look at Greece…..frankly there is a very rough landing somewhere beyond my vision.
Ireland has been going in one form or another for a few thousand years and will outlive all of us. In what form I dont know. What I do know is that we cant “bind” our successors. As far as they are able they will make their own choices. And whatever it is ….I wont like it. And to be honest all of you that are younger than me will get to the same stage of life.
I think when Thatcher was in her prime and we travelled home listening to news of miners strikes, ambulance men on strike, firemen……rising unemployment, there was at least the hope it would al end…..and be reversed………….and that the political pendulum would swing. Theres something comforting about knowing it will swing a few times during your lifetime. Its less comforting when you know that there wont be that many swings left.
Ireland? Norn Iron?…….too much depends on outside factors, notably Europe. And my starting point would be that anything which is Englands (or unionisms) crisis is Irelands (or nationalists) opportunity. Even a World War.
Three power blocks will emerge in Norn Iron…..they have already….nationalism, unionism and letsgetalongerism. More obviously than any other of the five politica parties……UUP is in crisis…..probably terminal. Its voters will desert……..possibly thru another short term party to DUP and Alliance.
That strengthens Alliance but changes the nature of the Party. The relevance of that change is problematic…Alliance started off as a liberal unionist party…..and the neutrality is less important now with current Republic of Ireland looking unattractive.
I certainly see the SDLP staying in the game much longer than UUP.
Perhaps the biggest danger is outside factors.
The commitment to the north is less…….its a rural Ireland thing. I dont trust those that are ALWAYS in power, the Europhiles, the Civil Service. Establishment Ireland is a lot different from Real Ireland.
There is a strange rise of a new breed that seems neither Irish or British……..Willie Walsh, Michael O’Leary, Ed Byrne, Rory McIlroy……..increasingly a national label is not how people see themselves.
Its simply not MY world.
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Paddy,
Leaving aside the statistical leap of faith ahead of the census details and the accompanying green comfort blanket of projected demographics – there are at least 4 assumptions underpinning the United-Ireland-around-the-next-corner world view.
Firstly, that Ulster will continue to be an economic basket case – (no discovery of shiny things in the ground or black stuff of the coast to reawaken Britain’s selfish, strategic etc interest.)
Secondly, that the South will cease to be an economic basket case and regain economic independence (admittedly there are strong indications of lots of black stuff of the coast)
Thirdly, that Uncle Tommery will not continue to be/will not become a significant factor in Ulster.
Fourthly, that the stupidity of Unionist (sectarian) behaviour and in particular the Loyal Orders, will continue to undermine the viability of Ulster within the United Kingdom.
Depending on the assumptions above – we may see a more pragmatic sensible political Unionism, as personified by Robbo, taking shape and helping secure Ulster’s position in the UK – and although I hope you are right – I feel there is more than a hint of the premature enumeration of unborn fowl about your musings.
ps I seem to remember on Slugger you did a list of Stormo seats that are next in line to fall victim to the green demographic tide – do you still have that to hand?
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Excuse me for being controversial, but this post stinks of triumphalism. I understand the sense of smugness at watching your ages-old foe reel in defeat, but there’s no place for it in the New Ireland (TM), we didn’t like how we were treated by the other side, so there’s no need to treat them the same, I don’t think any of us need a lesson in the origins of the northern troubles do we?
The very nature of the post assumes that unionism is illegitimate, if there is to be any reconciliation in Ireland, it will be if we understand the positions of the other side. They just plain and simply feel British, the same way you and I feel Irish, we feel Cork and Irish or Belfast and Irish, they feel Irish and British, the British parties would not cease to be in a united Ireland, they will exist the same way Irish nationalist parties existed under British rule. Unionism itself is a conservative ideology, so they’ll most likely join with other conservative parties in coalitions, at last Fine Gael will be able to rid themselves of Labour. A move which will probably reinforce the Scots Irish or whatever it is legacy in the northeast, which some or all of us should perhaps start getting used to, depending of course on how many of them are left after unification.
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weidm7
Thanks for your comment, I think your points are answered below by myself and other commentators, including Unionists, fair enough?
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No problem, thank you for the interesting blog posts.
You mean the exchanges below between carickally and sammymcnally? Not really, my basic points were that a) unionism is a legitimate ideology and b) because of this unionists won’t just float away in a united Ireland, Irish nationalism did not float away in Northern Ireland. In the posts below, carickally thought there would be refugee camps set up in Britain and then the topic drifted on to sectarianism in education.
The real issue is that nationalists have to accept the legitimacy of the unionist ideology and the seperate culture of Protestants, which might include things like a devolved parliament in what is now NI or part of it, recognition in a new Irish constitution for the Ulster Scots language and/or culture, a new flag, some kind of parliamentary connection to the UK or Scotland or other things nationalists might find distasteful. I didn’t see those issues being addressed below, please correct me if I’m wrong.
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weidm7
Apologies for taking so long,
If I may address your points , A, Of course Unionism is a legitimate ideology. As is nationalism.
B. I have no desire to see Unionism disappear, On the contrary it would be stronger in a united Ireland context
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Some interesting points here which I will try to deal with.
Weidm7 says “at last Fine Gael will be able to rid themselves of Labour.”
This is a non-starter. Labour in the 2011 (26 county) General Election received 431,796 first preference votes and a great number of transfers, whereas the grand total for every kind of Unionist in the 2011 NI Assembly election was not much over 300,000 with very few transfers.
So, even if all Unionists clustered together into one party, and none of them refused to recognize the new state, left the country or defected to Alliance, there still wouldn’t be enough of them to warrant putting Labour on the other side.
Consequently, if there were a United Ireland tomorrow, FG’s only viable strategy would be to maintain the coalition with Labour and align themselves with the SDLP and Alliance and any remnants of the UUP that might survive.
Equally the idea that Unionism is inherently Conservative is in need of examination. Socially, perhaps, but Unionists are very much subsidy junkies. Partition is expensive, requiring unnecessary duplication and extra security costs. The experiment of trying to import Conservatism into NI in the guise of UCUNF, failed, and even the M.P. of the richest constituency in the province could not bring herself to align her party with the Conservatives.
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In that election, Labour did particularly well thanks to the FF meltdown, even if that weren’t a once-off, FG wouldn’t need a unionist/British party to have that many seats, just enough to push over the majority line, which wasn’t very much at the last election, though again, we’re yet to see how typical that will be.
By ‘conservative’ I didn’t mean the conservative party, I mean conservative the adjective, i.e. wanting to conserve the status quo, since the union is the status quo and they want that, they are, by definition, conservative. You can further point to the DUPs anti-gay marriage, creationism and refusal to share power with nats at local government level as more examples of its conservative nature.
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Of course it’s hard to look into the future but just as “what if?” scenarios fascinate me, so too do the forward planning ideas – if for nothing else than we can look back at them after their time and think, “what if?”
Working on the assumption that there is a stage when 50%+1 comes into play and a referendum is won by the agents of Irish unity, there are the options outlined above. It’s worth looking at the fate of those in the lost counties to see what happened in the 1920’s.
The majority initially withdrew from politics, some organised into a Protestant association in south Ulster and then moved towards Fine Gael as it developed towards its modern form. Then there was the emigration into NI, the rest of the UK and the Empire that dropped numbers to the point of political irrelevance.
That model won’t float in any settlement that involves the swallowing of the whole Unionist population. Whilst there are plenty of “liberals” – think Alliance types – who will beg us to think of the children and allow Unionism to die quietly in the corner, there will be a much larger proportion of the population who will consider civil disobedience the bare minimum that they will partake in.
If the Irish government can ride out the first two years of this campaign, they will win. Look back at the force against the AIA in 1985-86 and look at where that got us against the attitude of Thatcher. That means that whoever is in power in Dublin at the time must be in a strong position without the possibility of internal dissent or with a weak partner. They must also be prepared to ensure that democracy ISN’T implemented in what used to be NI for that period, otherwise they will be faced with a real opposition with a large democratic mandate – we’ve seen where that gets us when it comes to negotiations with the political wing of an insurrectionist group. Dublin’s attitude is vital at every stage, much more so than London’s.
And so onto the headline grabber – the vicious loyalist backlash. I’m a loyalist. I’m also a family man. I will make a conscious decision about my choices because I’m rational. Gazing into a crystal ball, I can see a set of personal choices.
1) Abandon ship with my family. My choices would be further afield than the mainland – extended family in Canada, the USA, South Africa or India would hopefully take us in.
2) Send the family off to safety. Be that to the abovementioned options for them or refugee camps on the mainland. This would be a larger scale version of the removal of families from interface areas under attack to Liverpool and Glasgow at the start of the Troubles, possibly organised by our Government or by voluntary organisations set up in anticipation. This would involve me (and, depending on their age, my sons) staying in situ.
3) All stay. This would be the easiest option of the lot because it involves either doing nothing and continuing as best we can under the yoke of Irish oppression or taking part in the civil disobedience.
Any violence will start off in a disorganised fashion but I’d imagine would quickly become structured. The large-scale resistance would allow a rather open command structure and, as has been mentioned, the knowledge of military training would give those in charge an instant layering underneath.
I can see a defence organisation and a terrorist organisation separate but with the same goals – to reject Irish unity. The separateness will allow those who abhor terrorism to join the former grouping and live the white lie that the other crowd are nothing to do with them; self-denial techniques will become very important and are a lesson learnt from the Troubles and the aftermath.
Either way, the future for a united Ireland is rather bleak. Whilst the status quo is far from perfect from the inside, from the outside I would say London and Dublin would much rather maintain this than condemn this part of the world to at least two years of murder and mayhem, with the strains that it will place on both (but especially the Irish) economies.
Maybe not what you all want to hear, maybe not all true but a vision of the future that should not be ignored just because it doesn’t fit the traditional ideology of unity equals peace and freedom.
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Carrickally,
Thanks for such a well thought out reply. My first thought is that the reaction of Unionism is always to threaten violence.
As a Republican I have no wish for Unionists to leave Ireland or to feel unwelcome in whatever may emerge post reunification. I certainly would oppose any triumphalism or “swallowing” of those who are British on this island.
The fact is that Unionists have always felt insecure and threatened, both by nationalism and the threat of being “sold out” by a British Government.
This in turn has manifested itself as a certain defiance, stubbornism and faux militaristic threatening stance.
It’s called the Orange Card. The problem with this is that it’s a busted flush.
It lead to the creation of Northern Ireland in 1921 in defiance of a democratic election. That hardly worked out well. This year, Unionism celebrated an act of civil disobedience underscored by a threat of violence. If re-unity happens, what will Unionism be fighting for? re-partition?
What is needed is actually is for Unionist re-evaluation of its strengths and a recognition that its British identity is not threatened within a reunited Ireland. It is an opportunity for Unionists to redefine themselves with a strong confident voice, not the weakened, defensive, triumphalist claptrap that they have been fed for years by their politicians.
If you doubt me, examine 2 things. Where the South is now vis a vis 1921 and where Loyalism, particularly working class Loyalism is now vis a vis 1921.
“2 Years of mayhem”?
Somehow I doubt that although I do appreciate your engagement
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BD,
“It lead to the creation of Northern Ireland in 1921 in defiance of a democratic election. That hardly worked out well. ”
I think we have to accept that your postion above which is largely mine is in fact an ideological position i.e. ‘the failed Orange state’ ideology – if Unionists had any sense they would simply embrace their UK position, stop their parading, make Ulster a warm house for Nats and get as many Unlce Toms into their tent as possible and then pass off the preceeding difficulties sine 1921 as ‘birth pains’ complicated by the slow learning Irish Nats who took time adjusting to post partition reality.
If we are totally honest our (Nats) bestest friend in the whole wide world is probably the Orange Order.
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Sammy,
I can’t disagree with any of that
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weidm7,
re. “Excuse me for being controversial, but this post stinks of triumphalism”.
It certainly has an air of inevitably about it – not perhaps justified by an exmaination of the actual facts.
carrickally,
re. “The majority initially withdrew from politics, some organised into a Protestant association in south Ulster ”
Any links to this?
Presumably as a Unionist you view the realistic chances of a UI in your lifetime as quite slim?
re, “yoke of Irish oppression ”
I am genuinely struggling to think of any ‘what if’ scenario where that might come to pass – if anything ‘Ulster Culture’ (parading) would have a boom period as it would no longer be any sort of a threat – just as no currently bothers about Orange marches in Donegal and Southerners often try to get their kids into Protestant schools because they are sometimes viewed as better not to mention the Queen being welcomed to Belfast – in a way she could never be welcomed to Belfast.
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Hi sammy
some references for you:
Martin M (1994) The Organisation and Activism of Dublin’s Protestant Working Class, 1883-1935, Irish Historical Studies, Vol. 29, No. 113, pp. 65-87.
Fitzpatrick, D (2002) The Orange Order and the Border, Irish Historical Studies, Vol. 33, No. 129, pp. 52-67.
As a Unionist, I am pretty certain that I will not see a United Ireland as things currently stand. I would prefer a building of the current system to something approaching normality but again, I may not see that either. Stalemate seems to be the preferred default for all the stakeholders.
The yoke comment was very much tongue in cheek. However, whilst Rossknowlagh has been a shining example of tolerance, there are still levels of intolerance throughout Southern Irish society (D&W parade in Dublin being voluntarily dropped) that will only increase if the numbers of uppity Nordies increase. Think of the English immigrant problems since the 1950’s as your reference point there.
The Queen’s walkabout in Cork was probably the more successful non-choreographed part of her trip to RoI; Dublin’s emptied streets were obviously for security reasons but the meeting ordinary Irish people in the city centre was a real winner.
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carrickally,
thanks will check those references out.
“there are still levels of intolerance throughout Southern Irish society (D&W parade in Dublin being voluntarily dropped) that will only increase if the numbers of uppity Nordies increase”
I genuinely dont think that would happen – institutionally southern Ireland is almost a secular country and in minds of the people far more so than the North – the problem for most Nats in the North is that OO are celebrating victories that are still relevant (ie there is still a Norn Iron) if there was a UI that the OO would be seen as similar to the ‘sealed knot’ – it would have no relevance to Nats in the North just as it has no relevance to people in the South.
Although like you, I think that UI is a long, long way off (for the 4 reasons I give above) I do think that there may well be a SF first minister and then some time after that a Nat majority in Stormo and Belfast Council(assuming no reorgs) and I think at that point Unionism and the South may start to engage politically a bit more.
Psychologically what do you think the impact of such political greening of the North will have on Northern Unionists?
…In the meantime I also think that more through good fortune (which cant be relied on) the parading issue has still the potential to result in very serious community disorder leading to serious pressure on the SF-DUP axis.
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type should read “not to mention the Queen being welcomed to Dublin– in a way she could never be welcomed to Belfast”
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I’ve started a new piece instead of trying to reply to two parts, so bear with me on this one:
bangordub, first off the stance of the Ulster prod to be stubborn and defiant, thran even, is so inherently in most of us. Pseudo-scientists would claim it’s in the DNA (a bit like the claptrap the celebrity commentators on Sky’s The British voice every week) although there is a strong community memory/folklore that prides itself on “No Surrender.”
We’re often told that we’re being backed into a corner and this is what manifests itself in the threat of violence. The instances when it’s actually carried out – 1798, 1922, 1969 – are all in responses to those outside pressures. The UI due to agrarian issues after close to a century of misplaced Anglican oppression, 1922 in response to the breakdown of law and order in the South (interestingly, this is probably what would have happened in 1914 if it hadn’t been for WW1) and 1969 with the rise of militancy after the early warning of the Border Campaign.
Orangeism is the unifying thread of Unionism. That has been evidenced in political terms over the past year and a bit with the DUP-UUP “secret” talks and was scene in the successful commemorations last weekend. Because of that, it will be derided. It’s worth doing if you’re an opponent and if I were in a similar position, I’d do the same; remove the foundation and the house cannot stand.
sammy, in the case of NI, the institutionalised sectarianism is most evident in education and it ain’t the Prods doing it.
Re: Belfast. Castlereagh, Poleglass/Twinbrook/Lagmore, urban Newtownabbey are all obvious parts of the city but not within the council boundary. I’m surprised the re-organisation didn’t sort that out completely, so there may be a greening of BCC at the next election. The greening of the North is a harder one to judge by constituency.
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carrickally
Ok, I’m listening, although I’m with Sammy in thinking the OO are Unionism’s worst enemy
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Unionism is always its own worst enemy. I think it’s pretty well documented that we manage to make a hash out of things!
Rather surprisingly though, we’re still here.
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carrickhill,
re. “sammy, in the case of NI, the institutionalised sectarianism is most evident in education and it ain’t the Prods doing it. ”
I think that is a fair point and one the Prods dont make enough fuss about although Robbo did start down that route. I’m not sure, even now how this problem can be easily resolved because of segregation. Last week Carrick Hill had a new leisure centre because it ‘wasnt safe’ to use the ones in Loyalist areas of North Belfast.
Even if all the schools were now state schools they would probably still be divided into Fenian and Prod ones anyway – at least in working class Belfast areas where sectrarianism is the real problem.
I’m afraid, although I would support the removal of the Catholic sector it may well be too late to have a real impact.
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The removal of the Maintained sector would be a preferred option but I’m enough of a realist to know that this would cause massive problems amongst a large section of the Catholic population; it could become as much of an annoyance to them as the attacks on parades are to a large section of the Protestant population.
The funding of faith schools at 100% compared to state schools does need to be looked at, as does the influence of Transferrors in the controlled sector and the overt religious aspects of all schools in NI. But that’s for another day!
You are right that there will be, for want of a better term, natural segregation. It’s the same the world over where a class/ethnic group/religion congregate that the facilities provided for the area will be overwhelmingly used by them and identified as “theirs.”
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carrickally,
re. “that this would cause massive problems amongst a large section of the Catholic population; it could become as much of an annoyance to them as the attacks on parades are to a large section of the Protestant population.”
Admirable restraint indeed – not even a hint of you dont let us march then we will oppose your schools?
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I should hope not because that’s the road to blindness. Look at how many graves were filled thanks to tit for tat. Of course there are those who want to make any issue a political football (literally, in the case of sport funding). For some bizarre reason, huge swathes of the electorate keep voting for them.
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Carickally,
There is a huge amount that could be said about the education system, I’m tempted to get into it but not just yet. The truth is that Religious education in Ireland developed because there was no alternative provided by the state. In fact the poorest children were condemned to a life of poverty for that reason.
Anyhow, on the sporting theme, the GAA have appointed designers for the Casement Park redevelopment and things are moving along nicely, have you heard any word regarding Windsor Park yet?
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carrickally,
Yes it is the route to blindness for all – but given the nature of the relationship between the DUP and SF it is surprising that the ‘sectrainism’ of Catholic schools is not highlighted more by the DUP.
It is perhaps the one are where Unionists can fairly claim to be more progressive in terms of social policy than Nationalists.
bd,
I dont think the historical background can justify the maintenance of the status quo – I think the Catholic Church is the cause of many social problems in the South and in the North and Nats have been far too defensive – the history ‘defence’ does not really stand up unless it is accompanied by an admission that things need to change radically and they hat thhave been to slow in doing so.
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Sammy,
I agree with you on the social problems north and south caused by the church. I also agree that there is nothing wrong with with change and that it is needed. However I would strongly argue that without education provided by the RC Church, generations of people would never have got an education at all
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bd,
“However I would strongly argue that without education provided by the RC Church, generations of people would never have got an education at all”
I think that has to be put in an historical timeframe – at what point did the church ‘need’ to be doing what it was doing – post partition in the North the church didnt ‘need’ to provide an alternative to state education – and yet we as Nats we defend that beucause we know that although it contributed to division /sectarianism we like the spin-off – it kept the National issue alive.
Also in the South not sure when church was ‘needed’ until – certainly saved a lot of money(kept state borrowing down) but that as we found out (and should have know about) came at a terrible to cost to many many (thousands) children and contributed significantly to social conservativism and emigration of much talent unhappy with the religosity of the state.
Nats must be doing something wrong on Education when the DUP have a more progressive stance on a social policy than the Nat parties.
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Sammy,
I’ll do a blog on this seperately, or perhaps you would do a guest blog? as it is a huge subject and should be dealt with as a stand alone subject I think.
I think there are many reasons why education is segragated in the North, not all of them compelling, but the academic results speak volumes. I am an ex CBS boy by the way.
Your points about the abuse of power are, of course, entirely correct
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bd,
Thanks, for the offer. I would like to take you up on that but not sure I could do justice to that topic at the moment as far too busy. (I may pester you again to do a guestie.)
Back in the day, before my oxtering-oot, I did do an ‘anti-Irish-catholic’ offering over on Slugger which reflects my wider views on ‘the church’.
ps There is a really brilliant typo in it – which one of the commenters draws attention to where I get the word ‘previous’ wrong.
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Sammy, I’m used to your typo’s, I’m guessing you’re a 2 fingers man?
Article is good and reflects my own experience. The offer is open
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re. typing.- yes you are on the money – I’m pretty quick but then have to spend much more time tidying up before pressing send.
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sm,
I see your point about the policy of defence. It is a conservative trait that the majority of people in NI share; this maintains the status quo because of fear of the unknown. RC Church and Unionism are its twin pillars.
bd,
re: Windsor Park. AFAIK it’s at the public consultation stage. As a regular for internationals there, I’ll be happy to see Castle Greyskull tarted up, as long as the Glens get something too. I suppose that’s the story of politics and government funding wrapped up in a sentence!
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carrickally,
Have you any source/references for the East Donegal petition in 1934 (7,000 signantures) to join Northern Ireland?
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I see the Scottish Liberal Democrats have proposed a Federal United Kingdom.
Click to access Recommendations.pdf
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