This is sometimes like herding Goats. Sorry. That was disrespectful.
I keep trying to get back to solid figures here which is what the blog is about.
Jude made some great points on his blog which I think he would prefer I linked to rather than quote. Gonna do both.
UPDATE: Jude Collins9 August 2013 19:46
Bangordub – no need for the formalities – Dr Collins will do fine… ;
🙂
- When Arlene Foster speaks about leadership, she is of course talking about the abysmal failure of Sinn Féin to show leadership over the Castlederg republican parade. She is not talking about the brave leadership of the DUP, which has repeatedly denounced the violence of those who attacked the Lord Mayor in North Belfast, and has even gone so far as to heavily criticise those who would suggest the Lord Mayor had been warned not to go there.
- There is no equivalence between the Castlederg commemoration and that devoted annually in Coleraine to the memory of loyalist paramilitaries.
- There is no equivalence between the respectful 20 + loyal order parades which go through the centre of Castlederg each year and the planned republican commemoration.
- There is no equivalence between Sunday’s Castlederg commemoration and the annual Remembrance Day ceremonies in that town, where the heroism of British armed forces down the ages and up to the present day is honoured.
- Martin McGuinness has failed the unionist community by his refusal to accept that there should be no commemoration of any kind anywhere of any republican dead. He has also failed the unionist community by not accepting that they have the right to hold commemorations of their dead anywhere, anytime of their choosing.
- Black is white.
So we have 2 Nationalist Marches which are beyond the pale. Can anybody explain to me what the difference is?
"We in coming days may be" 
BD
This is another illustration if one was needed of how hypocritical both sides can be
1. It is a bit rich for republicans to cat call at others for not condemning some pushing and shoving on a day when they accepted after 30 years of denials that they murdered the only Irish prison officer killed in the Troubles, despite having known that they were responsible virtually from the time it happened. The DUP like the Orange Order in certain parts of Belfast appears to be reluctant to say anything openly critical of loyalism – interesting contrast between Simon Hamilton and William Humphrey both of whom were in the youth wing of the UUP at the same time as me – but it is kettle pot black. The Mayor should be free to go anywhere provided he is prepared to do so (let’s see if he’s so willing to go to the Cenotaph in November) but you also have the right to object to that, but not by assaulting him or his PSNI minders. Similar situation to parades – protest peacefully (unlike tonight or indeed last night)
2. As per Slugger there is no annual commemoration in Coleraine – there was one event 8 years ago which had no mainstream political involvement
3. Also as per Slugger that is like comparing tonights planned event in Belfast to the AOH (which has just as close if limited a connection with terrorism as the Orange Order does)
4. Now are we suggesting that commemorating WW1 & 2 is equivalent to commemorating the Tyrone Patriot Dead – although it is presumably offensive to Castlederg republicans to remind then that the side they were backing, the Imperialist Germans and then the Nazis, lost if at great cost on the first occasion to everyone in Ireland and on the second at some cost to both sides of our divide.
5. There has been less issue taken with other commemorations which this year have been deliberately moved to Castlederg to commemorate something which took place in Donegal? the only comment passed on previous years in Galbally was the paramilitary trappings (breaches of Parades Commission guidelines which can exercise republicans when they allege others have done it) and then use of GAA property in clear breach of its rules and its public funding conditions.
6. Black is white and white is black and ever it has been and ever it shall remain. If we waited for those without sin to cast the first stone there’d be a lot less rioting
(more insidious Republican/ Orange propaganda depending on who you read first)
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All good points and I will answer every one. I actually look forward to it.
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I think Horseman would have just told him to get lost.
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So that’s now three occasions of serious loyalist rioting in Belfast in the past 8 months. This is going to get worse before it gets better.
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Lurgan looking good: 😉
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Stiofán Ó Fearail is a class act. He does Swedish House Mafia (Don’t you worry child), to a tee also. If I knew how I’d put it up here, It gives the words also.
Perhaps BD you will do it. its on YouTube.
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Specially for you MPG: 😉
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Peter,
Finally getting around to answering your post,
BD
1. It is a bit rich for republicans to cat call at others for not condemning some pushing and shoving on a day when they accepted after 30 years of denials that they murdered the only Irish prison officer killed in the Troubles, despite having known that they were responsible virtually from the time it happened. The DUP like the Orange Order in certain parts of Belfast appears to be reluctant to say anything openly critical of loyalism – interesting contrast between Simon Hamilton and William Humphrey both of whom were in the youth wing of the UUP at the same time as me – but it is kettle pot black. The Mayor should be free to go anywhere provided he is prepared to do so (let’s see if he’s so willing to go to the Cenotaph in November) but you also have the right to object to that, but not by assaulting him or his PSNI minders. Similar situation to parades – protest peacefully (unlike tonight or indeed last night)
Fair comment: Would you agree that Matt Baggott called it straight today in asking for unequivocal condemnation from Unionist Politicians, no if’s, but’s or maybe’s? I do.
2. As per Slugger there is no annual commemoration in Coleraine – there was one event 8 years ago which had no mainstream political involvement
Slugger? C’mon
3. Also as per Slugger that is like comparing tonights planned event in Belfast to the AOH (which has just as close if limited a connection with terrorism as the Orange Order does) If you are seriously trying to say the AOH is anything like the “events” in Belfast I suggest a stiff Whiskey.
4. Now are we suggesting that commemorating WW1 & 2 is equivalent to commemorating the Tyrone Patriot Dead – although it is presumably offensive to Castlederg republicans to remind then that the side they were backing, the Imperialist Germans and then the Nazis, lost if at great cost on the first occasion to everyone in Ireland and on the second at some cost to both sides of our divide.
I, as an Irishman reserve the right to commemorate other Irishmen who gave their lives in the cause of Irish freedom. Your attempt to correllate Irish nationalism with Nazism is facile and frankly ludicrous. Other Irishmen, of all traditions chose to fight alongside the British in the two Wars to which you refer. I absolutely respect that choice and the right of people to commemorate them. I have no respect for those that fought in British uniform against people here.
5. There has been less issue taken with other commemorations which this year have been deliberately moved to Castlederg to commemorate something which took place in Donegal? the only comment passed on previous years in Galbally was the paramilitary trappings (breaches of Parades Commission guidelines which can exercise republicans when they allege others have done it) and then use of GAA property in clear breach of its rules and its public funding conditions.
Yet again the attempt to draw the GAA into it.
6. Black is white and white is black and ever it has been and ever it shall remain. If we waited for those without sin to cast the first stone there’d be a lot less rioting
Agreed!
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1. Absolutely agree as I did on the Twelfth – and Mike Nesbitt finally has done so with no ifs or buts
2. I was not using Slugger as Wiki but pointing out that it was on Slugger that this allegation first surfaced and it was on Slugger that it was rubbished – there was a one off commemoration in 2005 to mark the 30th anniversary of the UVF own goal with 3 bands and a PUP speaker (effectively an official UVF event like the recent East Belfast parade which no-one else was allowed near) – it is not an annual event
3. Although you r use of bold type makes it confusing to distinguish the loyal order parades in Castlederg are as I understand it as respectful as AOH parades – we have been over (and over) the distinctions between the loyal orders (and AOH) and what was planned for Belfast last night and Castlederg tomorrow. Compare loyal orders to the AOH (especially outside Belfast) and the parade tomorrow to the loyalist paramilitary inspired parades such as the Brian Robinson commemoration or their unofficial Somme marches and I will have no issues.
4. Remembrance Sunday technically remembers the dead of the 2 World Wars (few if any cenotaphs have more modern references, certainly not the one in Ballymena where I used to participate – even in my church the Korean War death our congregation suffered with RUR is recorded separately) which we appear to have no issues with despite the fact that at the time Republicans were playing for the opposition. And the correlation between republicanism and Nazism however uncomfortable you appear top be with it is not just a figment of my imagination from Donald Sutherland in The Eagle has Landed.
5. I only mentioned them to qualify the fact that there had been minor issues with previous years – you seemed to have forgotten to deal with the substance of my point while pointing out this detail.
6. I think there is more we agree about than we disagree about
I think that the abiding lesson for me from last night’s events is that perhaps unlike republicans until the SF / dissident split and the emergence of GARC it reinforces my view that the mainstream loyalist politicians no longer have the loyalist mob “on the leash” the way they used too and to a greater extent republicans still do – GARC and Divis bonfire aside.
They did in 1974 and Paisley had them straining at the leash or a long leash in 1977 but they have rarely or never been on the leash since (as the loyalist paramilitary leaders have claimed in several books I have read). Sometimes they coincidentally pull in the same direction (Drumcree. flags protests) but I always got the impression even when that mob turned up for Ulster Unionist Council meetings in relation to the GFA that they were no longer domesticated or house trained if you will. I’m not sure what the DUP think of what went on last night – many of the more moderate element will be face palming, some may be secretly pleased that the internment rally was disrupted and kept out of the city centre (not realising the dangerous precedent it has set) but I suspect the one thing they all realise is that unlike republicans they had little or no control over what happened. I know Copeland was there but I’m not sure any DUP reps were on the ground and I suspect that they stayed away because they had no control over events on the ground. The DUP need their votes to retain N Belfast and win back E Belfast and therefore refuse to condemn them but they don’t look to the DUP as their political leaders – they don’t seem to have political leaders.
That’s just off the top of my head and may full of obvious holes but what does it look like to more objective outsiders – loyalists particularly in Belfast are not just claiming to be disenfranchised they are actually disenfranchising themselves and is connecting themselves from the political process and returning to (currently relatively low level) violence and street politic. As has been said elsewhere republicans are the old unionists (establishment) and loyalists are the new republicans (street protestors) – what are the implications of this?
PT
My experience of the AOH is limited to a political exchange to America 15 years ago where every Irish American politician we talked to and some who weren’t even Irish American made great play of the AOH so I looked up their American website when I got home – check it out especially the links to Noraid and the Hunger Strikers (not to open that can of worms again) material. It may be the American plastic paddy cousins that have tainted my view but I am happy to be persuaded otherwise….
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By way of illustration of the rural urban divide in the loyal orders which I have referred to previously see
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/call-for-orange-strategy-for-belfast-1-5353871
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/orangemen-more-closely-bound-in-country-than-town-parades-commissioner-1-5371155
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Peter,
I agree with your points regarding the Rural/ Belfast divide in the Orders. I think Carrickally has also referred to it. It is evidenced by the contrasting scenes between Derry and Belfast this weekend for example. Is it not strange that the most Nationalist town in the North seems to be at peace with it’s Unionist population?
I strongly disagree with your remarks regarding Republicanism and Nazism but I could write a whole blog on that one. Suffice to remind you of who fought on who’s side during the Spanish Civil War. (I thought the “Eagle has Landed” was a great film btw 🙂 ) There has always been an element, mind you, of “Englands enemy is my friend”
I have very little knowledge of the AOH to be honest but I would argue that their political and civil influence has always been very limited in Ireland, certainly nothing on the scale of the Unionist Orders.
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American AOH is in fact a totally separate organisation from Iriah equivalent – another red herring netted! The Irish Hibs were very influential in the first couple of decades of 20th century – the organisation is now a shadow of its former self, an absolute irrelevance one might say. Let’s hope the Orange goes the same way.
On a separate note, it was amusing to see Arlene Foster and Gregory Campbell ‘bussed in’ to Caslederg to be offended today.
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BTW Drumcree was down the country last time I checked.
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The Eagle Has Landed is not as good as the Dobbs series of books on Churchill (IMHO) – as for the Maiden City some commentators but the parades successes there down to successful mediation and role reversal.
AOH in America is part of the same tree and from the same root – the red herring is black fish so take it out of the net and throw it back, as for Drumcree has been quiet for a decade and ironically it is now the residents who are refusing to talk (off the SF leash?) and yet facing no consequences for this form the Commission which uses that as a stick to beat the loyal orders with everywhere else
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Peter, you’re the only one who thinks – or seems to think – the AOH (Irish or Irish-American version) is in anyway relevant to the current shenanigans here. As usual, you’re engaged in a bout of whataboutery.
If you’re an example of a ‘moderate’ country Orangemen then the country is in deep trouble. Fair play to those in Portadown, Dunloy and Rasharkin who continue to stand up to you.
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Me and Wikipedia (and their websites although it is hard to tell in Board of Erin is actually Ireland or America) but it is a minor detail to my analogy but once again you get fixated about the details and not the substance.#
Good of you to deal with all my points so succinctly (not at all) and simply engage in another ad hominem attack FF – thanks for reminding me why its often pointless to have discussions with the unelected mouthpieces of Residents Groups if they are all as reasonable as you then I’m not sure why we changed the policy except to call their bluff like at Drumcree where it turns out that after a decade of asking for talks that’s not what they want after all – kettle pot black again?
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Let’s face it, Peter. You’re only prepared to advocate compromise after it’s been forced on you, fait accompli. This does not in any sense make you a moderate.
Every year, without fail, you balance on a pin-head to defend the right of UDA and UVF aligned bands to trample through Rasharkin.
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A parade which is nothing to do with the loyal orders – but is presumably completely different from the parade in Castlederg today?
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More deviation.
Whether the Rasharkin band-parade is organised by loyal orders or not, it’s a parade which every year, you as an individual justify and promote on S O’T.
You only claim to be in favour of compromise after it’s been imposed on you.
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And what is your proposed compromise in Rasharkin (to follow you right off a topic you clearly don’t want to discuss to one where you feel more at home)?
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What’s wrong with the one the unionist parties advocated for the paramilitarists in Castlederg, Peter?
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Which was to commemorate them where they died – except that the parade in Rasharkin does not commemorate and loyalist terrorist deaths. Nul points – try again FF
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Ah, we’re back to ‘see no evil, hear no evil’ and balancing on the head of a pin again.
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Not really – I assume there is no dispute that the suggested alternative for Castlederg was the scene of the crime / martyrdom depending on your point of view and there is no direct comparison for Rasharkin so I don’t see how that analogy applies
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Honestly,
You pair are great craic but can we try and keep to the argument?
I’d love to get yez in a Pub over a few pints but I think points have been made and done to death.
My position is clear. Republicans have every right to commemorate their Dead as do Unionists with one condition.
That no offence is deliberately caused to the other side.
I understand that Unionists have a problem with seeing moral equivalence between both sides. I have a problem with seeing the British Army or their militias fighting people on their own ground, having denied them democratic rights, and claiming legitamacy.
I have a problem seeing commemorations and memorials to an army responsible for many many deaths both here and overseas.
I have a problem seeing their flag waved in my face and being told it is the flag of here.
It is not. It never will be and I can quote many reasons why.
I do, however, respect the rights of others to differ.
I expect them to respect my right to do likewise.
As for Castlederg, Republicans commemorated their dead, others protested in a civilised dignified manner (despite the best efforts of certain politicians). The protesters and Marchers all emerged with credit and positive coverage.
The contrast with events in Belfast was striking.
The question remains, what is the Orange Order at?
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Dub,
We’re at the heart of the argument – bullshit, double standards and general mendacity. And you reckon drink’ll improve matters! 😉
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Well if it stops yourself confessed “bullshit, double standards and general mendacity” it could only help – come up with the question you wanted to ask me and the answers to mine yet?
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Still waiting….
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Tell me more PB about the AOH connection to terrorism.
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Which was to commemorate them where they died – except that the parade in Rasharkin does not commemorate and loyalist terrorist deaths. Nul points – try again FF
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Peter,
What does the parade in Rasharkin commemorate please?
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Sorry double post — replied to PT not FF
The Rasharkin parade on which I am not by the way an expert is the annual parade of the local band not a commemoration of any event or person. Bands who attend parades on a regular basis (as opposed to those who parade only a few times a year with loyal orders) have parades and often competitions which are attended by all the bands whose parades they attended. This is the parade of the local band and is attended by anyone whose parade they attended by those bands whose parades they attended – I suspect the band form Ahoghill will be there as they were in the parade here a couple of weeks ago.
The Ballymaconnolly band is based in a local Orange Hall which is about 2-3miles outside the village (the band in Rasharkin is a pipe band and seems to provoke less reaction although I understand the local hall is little used as meetings were constantly being disrupted and vehicles attacked) and many of its members used to come form the village although most now live outside it.
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it doesn’t commemorate anything. It’s an in your face ‘celebration’ of loyalist ‘culture’ complete with UDA and UVF aligned bands from across Co Antrim, Co Derry and Belfast who, along with their hangers on, invade the small predominantly nationalist village in great numbers on a Fraiday night every August. Peter knows more about than he is letting on as it’s just up the road and he’s forever making excuses for it. Republicans bad, loyalist paramilitary groupies good.
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What more is there to let on? I’ve never been to it – the only time I paraded in Rasharkin was with the BB 30 years ago. Interestingly it was then a mixed village but we still required the protection of the then DMSU from the RUC which was an interesting experience for a sheltered 8 year old from Ballymena. Of course since then almost all my fellow religionists have voluntarily moved out due to the mysterious occurrences of all their windows breaking themselves in the middle of the night and their cars mysteriously being daubed / scratched with sectarian graffiti – securocrats responsible no doubt.
Perhaps you can link me to where the Frank Spencer appreciation society of which G Adams was apparently once a member parades through the village with their berets and dark glasses despite it being overcast behind bands with armalites on their drums which is certainly not a breach of the Parades Commission Code of Conduct where it states “No paramilitary-style clothing is to be worn at any time during a public procession”?
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Republicans bad, loyalist paramilitary groupies good.
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I have been critical of loyalists which give the lie to that statement – where have you been critical of republicans to make exactly the same statement in reverse about you equally untrue?
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You were critical of loyalists, were you? I must have missed that. Or it was mild stuff like oh, they’re naughty commemorating terrorists but they should be still be allowed to march and anyway, it’s nothing to do with us in the Orange Order. We should be able to march wherever we like when we like and how we like unless of course a compromise was eventually forced on us, in which case I begrudgingly accept it now because I’m a moderate honest I am, guv. But look at them dirty republicans!
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Its actually on this very thread as well as on previous threads FF – and yet you still don’t seem to be able to bring yourself to condemn republicans and their violence (in fact in the past you have actually condoned it) so your rather childish humour is more applicable to you than it is to me – just reverse everything you have said about me which I can refute with evidence and apply it to yourself and see how you get on.
“Would you agree that Matt Baggott called it straight today in asking for unequivocal condemnation from Unionist Politicians, no if’s, but’s or maybe’s? I do.
1. Absolutely agree as I did on the Twelfth – and Mike Nesbitt finally has done so with no ifs or buts!”
Are you a total hypocrite or just on this particular issue?
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Mike Nesbitt!? You mean the former journalist who claims he didn’t notice anyone organising violence at the riot the other night?
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OK so I see you want to talk about me until I produce my evidence and now we are going to talk about Mike Nesbitt – when will we eventually get around to talking about you and your apparent support for violence? never it would appear…now I’m not going to be ignoring you, I’m (ironically) off out to a loyal orders meeting where we will be discussing how to annoy our local residents here in Ahoghill (that is after all why we exist or so you believe) before discussing where is the nearest chapel so that our accordion band can know where to play loudest (never mind that we don’t pass it) and then exchanging our favourites recipes for cooking catholic babies. I am an extremist – take a look in the mirror my friend!
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When cornered invent random accusations of support for violence- unionism it was ever thus.
If you were truly moderate you would walked away from Co. Antrim’s version of the KKK a long time ago. Say hello to the boys, won’t you, Peter
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Still silent when requested to condemn violence FF – I think tit should be clear who is the moderate and whom is the extremist by now…..the accusation is not random you said it yourself on a previous thread and you cannot point to a similar statement from me because I have not made it.
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OK Guys enough?
Can we agree you both attend, as observers, the next controversial parade, make notes, take pics and lets compare them?
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BD
If its Saturday week I’m afraid I’m busy that day…..
FF
To spell it out as simply as I can you accuse me of holding the position
“Republicans bad, loyalist paramilitary groupies good.”
I have conclusively demonstrated that here and elsewhere that I have not always been critical of republicans and have in fact been critical of loyalists especially paramilitaries and at no time have sought to justify violence by them
You however have yet to reciprocate by showing me any examples of where you have been less than critical of loyalists and where you have in fact have given republicans anything less than 100% support. if you cannot do so and you have been given numerous opportunities to do so.
I have proven that I am not guilty of what you accuse me of – can you do prove you are not in fact guilty on the same charge? Given that BD as the chair has said enough and I have spelled out the simple maybe you could bring the discussion to a close with a direct answer?
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The statement “you have in fact have given republicans anything less than 100% support.” came entirely from your own head. I’ve haven’t mentioned them. There’s no need. The people rioting on our streets, time and time again, are loyalists – the brainwashed followers of your precious order.
I guess pointing that out makes me an ‘enemy of Ulster’ in your eyes.
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**COUGHS**
“If you can provide me with a convincing reason why your intolerant and intolerable anti-Catholic parade should be allowed to pass by St Matthews’, not once but twice in the same day, I’ll condemn those youths who stoned it”
Entirely from my own head – not even qualified condemnation only justification for scenes similar to those in Royal Avenue.
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Ah Peter, I guess you can’t come up with a convinving reason why that disgusting ‘return parade’ past St Matthew’s should continue to be permitted. ‘Traditional’ just doesn’t cut it any more.
Once again compromise will have to be forced on you.
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Still no condemnation of violence – you are the extremist not me!
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The worrying thing is, you probably believe that. At the end of the day I, like most other nationalists, still uphold your right to dress up like a fool and march down the public highway. You just need to get it into your not terribly intelligent head that that’s not a blank cheque.
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Still no condemnation of violence….
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…says the man who spends most of his free time glorifying it.
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Still no condemnation of violence….
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I’m not a pacifist, Peter, and neither are you.
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True – but I don’t believe that a parade however offensive justifies violence and you do – how under those circumstances can I be more extreme than you?
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How do you suppose the state could have stopped the parade in Castlederg withough recourse to the sort of ‘legal’ violence that was used against republican gatherings in the past? Larry Marley’s funeral for instance.
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Look Peter, I do not advocate violence against your parades, even though some of them are gratuitously offensive.
I suggest that if you go down the road of besieging and initimidating people and insulting what they hold dear you should not feign outrage when some of them fight back. Maybe you need to spend time in the Short Strand in the month of July – or just read some of the postings supporters of ‘loyalist culture’ make about the Short Strand on social media. The word ‘burn’ features alot.
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I’m tempted to comment about once again compromise has had to be forced on you but I won’t…
The state does not use violence to stop parades – it blocks their path and then others use violence to try to force the parades through (or in the case of Royal Avenue vice versa).
Let me just reiterate that although the parade may have been illegal under the Terrorism Act (everyone was keen to stretch its application to and beyond breaking point use it on loyalists over the Twelfth but almost everyone has suffered selective amnesia about it in the intervening month) I think that republicans do have a right to commemorate their dead – it was more about why it was moved from the rural field that it always advocated for the loyal orders to a town where the route deliberately stoked tensions by passing the scenes of a number of recent murders. Take it away from those even elsewhere in Castlederg and there would have been equivalence and I would not have objected…
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Peter, the parade in Castlederg may have been insensitive – or even offensive – but it was certainly not illegal. Unionism has plenty of legal ‘expertise’ at tis disposal including yourself. Where was the judicial review?
Of course the rest of us just sit back and shake our at heads at the irony of unionist spokesmen howling about the commemoration of ‘terrorism’. It’s something they turn a blind eye to when loyalists are involved.
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The local British Unionist community in the Castlederg region are allowed to honour their war dead without hindrance but when the Irish Nationalist community in the same region attempt the same…
“Parade was held in Castlederg, Co Tyrone, Northern Ireland on the 4th of June 2013
Lance Corporal Michael Darcy served in Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR) in the west Tyrone (Castlederg) area. He was a founder member of Castlederg Young Loyalists. On returning home from a local parade on the 3rd of June 1988, Michael was murdered by IRA terrorists, he was shot six times in the back outside his home, killing him instantly aged 28 years old. Also in this video is the dedication of Castlederg Young Loyalists new drums…”
One rule for them, another rule for everyone rest.
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Yes the brave patriots of County Tyrone commemorated on Sunday (and in his case those involved were possibly on parade) shot him 6 times in the back as he returned to the home he shared with his widowed mother in another staggering example of military courage.
Perhaps we could have a list of his victims whose murder scenes were passed by the parade in his honour and then we could accept that there is in fact a direct comparison?
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Michael Darcy was a local lad serving as a soldier in the UDR militia and his death was marked just two months ago by a Unionist parade through the town. Republicans were marking the deaths of their locals lads who served as soldiers in the Irish Republican Army by their parade.
You may not accept the equivalence but there are many who do.
Personally I would prefer no parades at all. There are other means to commemorate one’s war dead, especially given local sensibilities on all sides.
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Perhaps we could have a list of his victims whose murder scenes were passed by the parade in his honour and then we could accept that there is in fact a direct comparison? has not been dealt with – significantly the issue for may unionists was not the parade itself (which may be contrary to the Terrorism Act which everyone was so keen should be stretched to be applied to others in relation to Woodvale but seem to have forgotten about a month later) but the fact that it was apparently deliberately moved to Castlederg.. A Para parade in the Bogside is not an appropriate analogy given the views of residents so what about a PUP parade with a DUP MLA speaker at the scene of the Miami Showband massacre?
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Does this mean you support Ardoyne residents objecting to the loyal orders marching down the Crumlin Road with paramilitary-linked bands like ‘Pride of Ardoyne’ and Shankill Star in tow?
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If the parade was a commemoration of those who died whilst committing acts of terrorism then yes but you are comparing apples and – well pick another random fruit. The order has ensured that banners commemorating the members of those bands killed on active service are no loner carried on the Twelfth which is something I would oppose and certainly if the bands drums and banners were decorated with armalites as they were last Sunday in breach of the PC determination then they would have every right to oppose that. But in Castlederg they did not attempt to stop it (unlike Belfast which I have condemned) and they did not riot for a number of nights afterwards (which you would presumably condone at Ardoyne but condemn at Woodvale – I at least am consistent in condemning both).
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You are attempting to claim that all Irish nationalists view the IRA as their own ‘war dead’. Let me tell you they don’t most people of a nationalist background I know view the IRA with utter contempt. Trying to elevate the IRA to the same level as the men and women who died for the allies in WW1 and WW2 is an Irish republican propaganda attempt. People of Irish nationalist background I know view the latter with respect and the former with contempt. As Dr McDonnell leader of SDLP said the former are ‘down the pecking order’ and he will have had plenty of Catholics. Protestants and others nodding their head in agreement.
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Alph,
They’re as likely to be commemorating UDR militiamen who double up as loyalist band-leaders as anyone who fought in WW2 – and by all means let them do so!
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And doffing their caps on bended knees. They arent nationalists…….they just dont mind the taste of the soup. No big loss, because if a tastier ‘soup’ is offered to them theyll take it too!
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I’ve mentioned this before, probably elsewhere but the majority of nationalists personally know former volunteers. They may be family, friends, neighbours or work mates and what they will know is that these people were not the satanic visions of Jim Allster’s rhetoric but ordinary decent fellows and girls who were inspired to act by the actions of the state.
My brother “scrubbed” (the term his C.O. used) an RUC man who was involved in assisting loyalist gangs in attacks on Catholics and their church (many times) in Glengormley. The RUC man was not alone in this activity.
Despite approaches to senior officers by the local parish priest and men from the area , this activity continued. The men organised but were accosted by police as they patrolled the areas most often attacked. So, what did they do? Well, the only thing they could.
My brother served his time and went to the states soon after release. He returned and is by far (as are every volunteer I know and it’s a fair few) the straightest person I know.
Other actions by security forces, high profile ones such as the RUC murder of Patrick Rooney http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eag30rXgdU&list=PL40FEF4341512A043&index=3 (and non prosecution of that cop), the violence visited upon peaceful cvil rights marchers http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_7968000/7968671.stm , the internment (initially focused only on Catholics and civil rights activists) of innocent people, including them being tortured and so on.
Such people who took to action for a cause deserve respect. That is not to say all actions were honorable or justifiable, far from it but that is not to say that all should be damned for the inexcusable.
Is it not the unionists and British who are first to play the bad apple card when their deeds are, usually very expensively, exposed?
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“You are attempting to claim that all Irish nationalists view the IRA as their own ‘war dead’. Let me tell you they don’t most people of a nationalist background I know view the IRA with utter contempt. Trying to elevate the IRA to the same level as the men and women who died for the allies in WW1 and WW2 is an Irish republican propaganda attempt.”
Er, perhaps someone forgot to tell the British government and the British head of state? THE BRITISH HEAD OF STATE HONOURS IRELAND’S FENIAN DEAD.
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Pingback: Republican Parades, Unionist Violence | An Sionnach Fionn
FF it is a matter of great annoyance and contempt that loyalist paramilitaries have on occasion and in certain locations tried to locate their dead to the great sacrifice of the WW1 and WW2 dead. It disgusts many.
The ‘decent middle’ in Northern Ireland is not represented by republicanism, nor by loyalism, and this situation cannot go on.
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I’m glad you mentioned that, Alf. When was the last time you heard a unionist politician speak out about loyalist paramilitary acts of remembrace?
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@alphiedale,
So like many Unionists, even after 90 years, you still refuse to recognise Ireland’s war dead while screaming like a demented banshee: respect our Unionist and British war dead!
Can you not see that it is a two-way street, one most of Ireland has already gone half-way down while you and yours are busily erected barricades at the other end?
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What are you on about SOS, if its good enough for HM the Queen its good enough for me.
Several times I have critized on this blog the obsession with events from 90+ years ago, while at the same time stating a focus on the recent troubles is somewhat fairer game – I believe such a perspective is more representative of Northern Ireland society. Historical obsession with 1916 etc is the preserve of republicans, not the ordinary people. it ain’t the way forward.
I am not a demented banshee. I do not for one minute believe that most of the people from a nationalist background in Northern Ireland hold the IRA and their actions in any sort of regard at all; contempt is a more suitable adjective. Nor do I believe such numbers see them as ‘Ireland’s War dead’ – Sinn Fein would like the Irish people to think of the IRA in these terms, but a lot of them don’t.
If the IRA and their violent actions been held in such high regard during the troubles then such high numbers would have voted for Sinn Fein/IRA during the troubles. You know as well as I do that the vote for Sinn Fein/IRA tactics during the troubles was tiny. A good example was the complete collapse of the Sinn Fein/IRA vote in Fermanagh in the immediate aftermath of the appalling Enniskillen cenotaph bomb by IRA/SINN Fein.
I’ll also have you know I ain’t erecting barricades metaphorical or otherwise down my end of town. I long for the day when you and yours are marginalized politically along wiith DUP and the silent ordinary folk in the middle who look on at you extremes in exasperation finally get their political act together. It may never happen, but we have to sure as hell try.
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@alphiedale,
In relation to your views on the latest conflict and those from the Irish Republican side who participated in it fair enough. I do not expect any member of the British Unionist minority to accept the legitimacy of the Irish Republican Army 1969-2005. Many Nationalists would agree (though time may well change that – arguably it already has).
But if you can accept on an equal footing the Volunteers of the Irish Republican Army 1916-1923 with the soldiers of the British Army (or indeed UVF) and the right to honour both in our respective ways then fair enough. I welcome that and again would expect no more.
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I really wonder if the loyalist protests in Royal Avenue and Castlederg are a marker as to how they will behave at Easter 2016.
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Or St. Patrick’s Day 2014…
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Hate to say it but the dissidents played a blinder.
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They got 600 people on their laughable ‘anti-internment’ march. The loyalists succeeded in making them look dignified.
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You need to get your figures right……i think you’ll find it was 6000+ rather than 600. You must get your information from that british rag that masquerades as an irish newspaper, the irish independent????
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Thought you might enjoy this: Wings Over Scotland Panelbase Voter Survey
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FIGURES !
Oh good, good, good…..
Thank you Séamus, I may have to stay up late………. 😉
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I might as well be looking into a bush……………..
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This all boils down to a simple point. Equivalence.
Does a majority Irish town not have the right to have a march in remembrance of its dead?
Yes or No?
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I’m just back from Windsor Park Northern Ireland were effing brilliant against massive Russia! We are chuffed to bits and delightfully happy. I floated up the Lisburn Road. Niall McGinn was terrific, Gareth McAuley true prem quality the atmosphere class , Marty Paterson surprised us fantasitically and I am delighted for our manager Michael O’Neill.
The oft asked Northern Irish query, how do we do so utterly well against the top sides yet so pish poor against the wee lads.
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An equivalence with what?
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Peter,
Thanks for the simple question. Equivalence between those who fought and died for Britain or for Ireland.
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Peter, the conversation with FF, entertaining as it is, is descending into insult. It is going nowhere and it is pointless. I am extending rope like it’s going outta fashion but if we all keep to the points at hand we might get somewhere. FF. I get your anger. My MUM is defending you ffs. She is 85. Help me out here
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It’s ‘tradition’, Dub, but your Mum is wise enough to know, that don’t make it right! I gave you some advice already. 😉
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Peter,
A simple Yes or No?
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If they fought in legitimate armies in legitimate conflicts then there is equivalence, no unionist I know has any issue with the Irish participants in WW1 or even WW2 but if you then extend that to terrorists especially those who operate outside international law then you condone such remembrance for loyalists terrorists, Al Qaeda, I could go on – no-one has taken up or issue with my equivalence of the Miami Showband with what happened in Castlederg on Sunday.
I am also glad to hear you mother takes the side of the moderate who refuses to condemn any form of republican violence against the extremist who is consistent is his condemnation of violence from whatever source it comes…of course if the Castlederg protestors had attacked the far more provocative parade on Sunday would she and FF have condoned that?
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Right,
Enough of this nonsense. Let’s imagine the Germans won the 1st or 2nd world War and occupied Britain. What would you have done? how would you view those who resisted? Terrorists?
I am an Irishman. my fellow Irishmen fought a perfectly legitamate war against an occupying army. If you doubt that check the election results and check how subsequent elections were dealt with. I can defend every point of that statement.
The Miami were shot by the UDR. Fact. They were a paid up, uniformed, armed and legitimised militia of the British state. Do you dispute that?
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Indeed so there is a Nazi invasion (this is where the equivalence ends bearing in mind that Britain has been in Ireland for 1000 years and initially came by invitation but I will indulge the analogy) – there is a substantial German majority settled in the north east of the island and several hundred years later there is an uprising where the Nazis sometimes don’t play by the rules and the terrorists never do. There is a peace agreement and then the terrorists demand the right to march through a town with a significant German minority and where they have killed nearly 30 people without suffering any significant losses at the hands of the occupying forces, only own goals. Do you expect the Germans to be happy about this?
I’d also be interested to hear how the actions of the IRA were legitimate (Enniskillen, La Mon, Teebane) when they almost without exception fell woefully short of the required international standards for legitimacy and how this is supported by election results – we have been over that before….
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I’m losing the will to live here.
Right:
1000 years. The British were invited in.
I’m not even going to go there. That is the the most incredible analysis I’ve ever heard.
Let me put the next part right back at you. At supremacist minority insist on marching past your door 20 times in 6 months just to remind you that they, even though they are in a minority, are ruling the roost. They bang drums, wave flags and proclaim their superiority.
The Germans actually did this in parts of Poland and Cheqoslovakia in 1940.
It is supremacist nonsense.
Everyone knows it.
The game is actually up.
It is time to negotiate. That is the realisation that has not yet happened.
The longer it takes, the worse deal Unionism will get.
That’s what I think. I may sound like FF
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“The Norman invasion of Ireland was a two-stage process, which began on 1 May 1169 when a force of loosely associated Norman knights landed near Bannow, County Wexford at the request of Diarmait Mac Murchada, the ousted King of Leinster, who sought their help in regaining his kingdom.”
The first 2 lines of the Wiki entry on the Normans in Ireland…
The supremacist minority is actually a majority by the way – as a great man once said (i)f you doubt that check the election results and where exactly do these parades take place past the majority/minority’s door?
And until you point blank refuse to engage with any of my points you won’t be like FF.
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Funny enough, Conflict NI has just tweeted a reminder of the relationship between unionists and loyalist killers https://twitter.com/ConflictNI/status/367747566605045760/photo/1
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Peter I have listened to your argument. You really do have a weird view on things. But two small points:
1. It doesn’t matter whether we asked for “Britain” (I use that term since you did and inexplicably used 1000 years with it but that is another matter) to come over here – now, in this day and age, the majority of Irish people want to rule themselves as one. (You can argue against that but that will only show how partisan you’re outlook is – which is clouding the reality of the situation). Tell you what, let’s organise a vote on it – and this time it will be fair.
2. You say you are against terrorism and for “legitimate conflicts”
Fine, but didn’t Britain set up and maintain French terrorism during WW2? In other European countries also?
What about those “brave” airmen of Bomber Command, who from 3-4 miles up in the air obliterated and disappeared all those 3/4 million Germans when their towns and cities were made wastelands? They weren’t fighting soldiers – they fought their families instead.
But sure that’s one example, in one war, in one country. Would you like further examples to show you that terrorism and its glorification is something that British people enjoy and practice?
I could go on about your view of “legitimate conflicts”. For example, what was legitimate about Britain involving itself unnecessarily in TWO World Wars when it obviously was none of their business. But I won’t.
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I don’t think Peter’s view is particularly unique. It’s pretty much the standard Orange slant on things – ahistorical and utterly self-serving. Dance to time-warp, yeah!
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We have had a vote on it – or do you not accept that the referendum on The Agreement was fair?
How is any conflict legitimised?
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I’ve looked at this site a couple of times and was intending to begin commenting. However any site that allows a comment that refers to the murder of a human being as that person being “scrubbed” is just yet another hate-site that is best to avoid.
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Cináed mac Muiris
Your comment is absolutely correct and I have repeatedly asked the worst offenders to “cease and desist”. This blog is not about flinging abuse but about engagement. I cannot find the offending comment? Perhaps you could point me in that direction? Like most of us I have obligations other than policing comments and I dislike censorship in general. I have no problem with robust debate.
I welcome new comments from most sources and ask only that we are respectful of others. The comment to which you make reference clearly wasn’t.
Thank you for pointing it out.
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Cináed mac Muiris
Thank you, the term was qualified “My brother “scrubbed” (the term his C.O. used)” I am not blocking it as it was not a term of abuse used against anyone else but an historical term used and qualified as such. BD
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FF, why do you bother, this guy is brain dead.
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“I would ask that comments, if any, are not personally abusive”
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The reason I bothered is becasue I object to Peter’s characterisation of himself, here and elsewhere, as ‘moderate’ or ‘mild’. Some commentators cling dearly to the belief that there are moderates in the Orange Orders and that if we support them in their struggle with those who are even more extreme, peace and goodwill will come to characterise the month of July. Such people are living in a fools paradise. Apologists for Orangism are invariably hardliners and Peter is no exception, despite what he might think.
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Bulls eye!
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And yet I am demonstrably more moderate than you…..
Ironically there are many from the CNR community who would disagree with you – the Order has extreme elements particularly in Belfast but it is widely accepted by those less blinkered than you that the vast majority of members are not the KKK equivalents you are characterising us all as without exception . I would refer you again to the award given to our Education Officer by a catholic school as incontrovertable proof of the fallacy of your clai.
MPH it’s something beginning with bull but not ending in eye…
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And yet I am demonstrably more moderate than you…..
Peter, what criteria are you assessing that on – and through what colour lenses are you conducting your assessment? 😉
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Do you not see the double standards Peter of DUP/OO outrage over Castlederg whilst allowing themselves to be part of a protest at Woodvale they knew would include UVF bands and UVF murderers close to where the UVF murdered a Catholic. We see Mervyn Gibson and other OO leaders including a Belfast DUP councillor having no problem standing with the perpetrators of these murders and those who glorify them in an area the UVF and Shankill butchers killed scores of people. Is this not worthy of condemnation from Unionism?
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I believe the answer goes something along the lines of “they’re commemorating the UVF of 1912” and therefore there’s no equivalence.
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I accept it is a double standard and have expressed my concerns here and elsewhere that the connection between this district and paramilitaries is too close. The fact that the parade is not specifically to commemorate the UVF 1912 or 1968 distinguishes it from Castlederg but does not justify the carrying of the Robinson bannerette which I believe has not been carried past Ardoyne shops for a number of years. But either both are acceptable or both are wrong.
It is equally wrong to then use this anomaly to tar the whole order with the same brush in the same way that collusion is used to tar the entire membership of the security forces. If so can we tar the whole GAA with the same brush because of the actions of some of its members and clubs?
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Peter, I’m from Belfast. I say what I see. The Orange Order and loyalist paramilitaries are inextricably linked.
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Truth hurts.
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MPG,
I would disagree with Peter on most things but he’s right on this one
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I’ll butt out so. Perfect Peter is just so ……..
Enough already.
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Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong.
Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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Look in before you look out.
Me
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Practice what you preach
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The lofty heights of the moral high ground have a rarefied atmosphere. In fact I don’t recall preaching lately but you certainly have been. Do you always practice what you utter from your (metaphorical) pulpit?
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Kalista’s Picture “a reminder of the relationship between unionists and loyalist killers”:
Posted into blog above
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