Is this a defining moment for the SDLP?
And by extension nationalist politics.
Over the past week we have witnessed a very public internal wrangle within the SDLP regarding the SPAD bill. Well respected old hands of the party, Brid Rodgers and Seamus Mallon have weighed in big style. This has weakened the hand of the leadership, namely big Al. It has also changed the power dynamic within the party. Note the silence of the likes of Conal McDevitt.
Sinn Fein have turned this into an internal nationalist debate about a heirarchy of victims and the essence of the Good Friday Agreement. Make no mistake this is about nationalist votes, hearts and minds. A fight, a very real fight, is going on within nationalism which touches upon raw issues.
At the heart of it is the definition of the word victim.
In my view this is a moment of truth which will define the direction nationalist politics may take going forward. My opinion, for what it is worth, is that the SDLP have made an unholy mess of this. Sinn Fein are capitalising on that mess and will benefit as a result electorally. Our memories are long and our capacity for forgiveness is not renowned.
"We in coming days may be" 
Abstaining helped and so will the three years to an election and a redeeming feature is that the intervention of the two veterans was not to boost Conall. Brid is of course a big fan but I have no reason to think that Seamus is..
I have actually thought that Conall is quiet for non- conspiratorial reasons.
Recently I have taken him to be a lot more reflective …more measured.
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I had a lot of sympathy for the Travers family because you can wrap it up anyway you like about hierarchy of victims but simple fact is most sane people will have more sympathy for someone like Mary Travers compared to an active republican or loyalist killed in action however Im not too comfortable about seeing lots of photos of Ann Travers cosying up next to Ulsters no 1 biggot
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Whether or not Ann Travers is next to Jim Allister is irrelevant – I don’t know if she is a unionist or a nationalist, nor frankly should it matter on this issue – but what is relevant is that someone has offered her a way of closing a painful chapter.
She is a lucky victim, in that she knows some of the people who were involved in the murder of her sister. There are many other innocents, from Derry to Dundrum who do not know who pulled the trigger and will never see someone held to account.
One thing that sickens me though is the inability of SF’s new breed (Daithi McKay) to see the difference between a person blown up by a bomb and a combatant. If that’s not a moral question to hold up and champion the cause of a hierarchy of victims, then I don’t know what is.
I’m happy enough for nationalism to continue its internal debate but I hope that the SDLP come out of it the stronger, for at least they recognise that there is a huge distance between someone who wants to play at war and someone who is caught up in murder and mayhem as they attempt to live their lives.
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Mary McArdle was a foot-soldier following orders. The old IRA man in west Cork hiding guns was equally as responsible for the death of Ann Traver’s sister. Everyone claims to know the leadership of the IRA throughout the troubles, well that’s who should be assigned responsibility if individuals are to be singled out.
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Carrickally,
A lot of Nationalists and Republicans would agree with your view that there is and should be some recognition of the difference between innocent victims and combatants. Anyone who took up a gun, whether to uphold the state or bring it down has made a decision to risk their life and threaten others.
A lot of Unionists, I believe, would insist on those combatatents employed by the state being in a different (higher) category and at that point, it decends into almost everybody wanting a category for themselves.
To some extent, even the worst perpetrators, are victims of their environment and history. The family members of all of the deceased victims should certainly be viewed as equal.
If we can’t have you’re breakdown into just two categories of victims (not that there should be any tangible difference in their treatment), then maybe Sinn Fein’s line of them all being the same was the next best thing.
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I think that Sinn Féin have taken the wrong approach. They should have made their arguments without looking so keen to protect insensitive use of their own patronage powers and without their absurd attacks on the SDLP. SF do need to internalise the effects of their actions on feelings of victims.
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Its important to look at the middle ground of politics and ask what the middle of the road typical and reasonable person makes of all of this. Most people do not earn £90,000 so these jobs seem very much of a taxpayer’s issue.
All I am saying is that we must not alienate the middle of the road typical person otherwise SF will not be able to grow votes.
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This is more than mere spads as recognised by most here, but again it is more than most here have recognised.
This goes down to the very question of the legitimacy of the use of violence to achieve nationalist objectives. If you say that the people who were criminalised and convicted during the last insurrection were justly criminalised and convicted you then open the question as to who wand when ever had the right to use violence against foreign rule in Ireland.
This was ably articulated by a unionist this morning on radio when he called the eater Rising heroes terrorists.
This is a very very stupid move by the SDLP – it has ramifications beyond the issue of Spads.
As did the removal of articles 2 and 3.
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Articles 2 and 3 were not rewritten, they were replaced.
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rewritten, replaced, removed whatever. The claim was dropped.
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The SDLP alliowed 2 anti-sinn feiners in mallon and rodgers to dictate to them policy. In their impulsive urge to hit sinn fein they have also attacked republicanism. The sight of Ann ‘I am doing this for all victims’ travers grinning like the cat that got the cream[i see an an OBE or MBE on the horizon] with unionists, will haunt the sdlp. It will also gladden the hearts of planter stock everywhere.
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Pingback: Second-Class Citizens, Second-Class Victims | An Sionnach Fionn
Nice little victory for the TUV and unionism in general.
I say “little victory” but as such one republican will be replaced by another.
Suppose small victories are all that are left now for unionism.
Hardly holds back political history in the old numbers game.
Tick Tock as they say.
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An Sionnach Fionn Nails it here:
When the British Government and political unionism accept the same rules of criminal responsibility as they apply to Irish republicans, then we have a situation where victims may be talked to and about in a context which provides hope for resolution
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Rightly or wrongly (I believe rightly, most if not all of you will believe wrongly) I would say that PaulG has hit the nail on the head. The majority of unionists see the issue of victims in simple bands – innocents, security forces and terrorists, of whatever ilk.
That then leads to the legitimate use of violence, not just by republicans but I’m going to take it a step further and talk about the original UVF. “We” came within inches of being the first terror group of the twentieth century, of that I have no doubt. It is an uncomfortable dichotomy that most unionists choose to ignore, and history was fortunate in our case in that we didn’t have to take up the arms we imported to be used against the British state at the time – however, there are some who recognise that our loyalty is very much conditional.
So in a sense, the IRA of 1916 stole a march on us and did indeed become the first terrorists of the 20th century in Ireland. That allows us as unionists to comfortably brand physical force republicanism as the evil without that has been lurking in the shadows since the plantation and has attacked us in many incarnations from the Confederation through the Defenders in the north and United Irish in the south to the Fenians and then to the last century and this. A failure to face up to history, and importantly our perceptions of history, will allow further festering of wounds.
To throw in the family members of victims as being equal also is, I believe, incorrect. What about a rabid family of gangsters who protect the murderers amongst us that get their just desserts and then follow the hearse, all teary-eyed, after allowing their loved ones to go on with their wicked deeds? I can think of plenty on the loyalist side over the last two decades alone who have been on that journey and I didn’t think to myself, there goes a family of innocent victims. I’m sure that story can be repeated with plenty of republicans, either trueblood heroes or criminal types.
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I find I cannot disagree with a word of that Carrickally with the possible exception of your use of the word “terrorist”.
Indeed the British army were operating concentration camps up until 1902 in South Africa as an example
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Carrickally,
Very preceptive points on the use of physical force.
A Protestant friend (farmers son) when we were in our 20’s had a very up front position. His forefathers had come and taken the land/province and built on it. If anybody wanted to take it away, whether they were right or wrong, they were going to have to fight for it. He had no respect for what he viewed as the whining of the SDLP and much more for my pro IRA argument – maybe he was just more comfortable with a clearly defined, up front, opponent.
It has always been clear that to Nationalists , that Unionists would fight by fair means or foul (and they have done both). What has been most irritating has been the pretence by most Unionists that they only support the rule of law, when really we all knew that in really, even their own police were ‘working hand in glove’ with their Loyalist terrorist fall guys.
Regarding victims, I totally agree with you that many of the family are not innocent at all (while were all victims to an extent were also all guilty to an extent), but within the same family you could have a parent who indoctrinated and encouraged the deceased and also have a child or a younger sister who is completely innocent and has only lost somebody very close.
At some level a line has to be drawn, in order to progress and get on and I can’t see that it would be useful make that line go through families.
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The SDLP seem to have forgotten what a rotten justice system we had during the troubles.
It was the RUC who provided the evidence and testimony in court which secured the convictions of Republicans in non jury trials.
The same RUC who handed over to Loyalists the weapon that was used to massacre Catholics on the Ormeau Road in South Belfast.
Shame on the SDLP I hope they face their 1918 moment at the next election. Any party that calls a piece of legislation flawed then do nothing to stop it dosn’t deserve the vote of anyone.
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FJH has a relevant story just published:
http://fitzjameshorselooksattheworld.wordpress.com/2013/06/04/so-then-one-of-them-shoved-a-gun-in-my-mouth/
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Ireland is a small place and Northern Ireland is smaller still, yet there is a huge dissconnect even among stratum in society that our meant to have a shared bond.
I’ve a friend whose granny is from Newcastle. As her funeral cortage left the RC church for burial the RUC cleared all traffic from the way and saluted the coffin. My Granny had her two Protestant neighbours around every Saturday night to play ’25’. At her funeral in Galbally the comforting final prayers we’re inaudible as three military helicopters circled the graveyard. This enraged my cousins from Dublin, all in professional occupations whose friends must be the equivalent of the Travers in Malone and probably gave the many Donaghmore folk present an uncomforting taste of the reality they’d soon go back to ignoring.
My family and neighbours didn’t expect anything different. Everyone knows of the military patrolling and has heard republican areas complaints, at being delayed indefinitely at checkpoints, helicoptors disturbing livestock etc. But the most unreal aspect of the 80s and 90s was living in a rural district that was almost totally devoid of canines. The night belonged to those soldiers from across the sea. And with the farm dogs giving their presence away, they first began poisoning them and then too greedy to waste the few shillings on a juicy steak just brutally bashing the terrified animals heads to a pulp. They came for our ‘Vinegar’ in 1990. They tore the hinges off the doors and I shook with fear as our old pet let out his last cries, with me too cowardly to help my loyal friend before the forces of ‘law and order’ dragged his body off for secret burial. I never joined the IRA, not even SF. I guess if I lived in Malone just like many there I’d hate what those irredentist Gaels got up to and be happy that my RUC was keeping us safe at night.
Alas, thank God those days our over and I hope the Travers family can now move on, maybe it might help her and her backers if they knew that most active republicans, that I know, believe that their sacrifice was in vain. So was there victors from the troubles? Well can’t speak for Unionists but I know those SDLP ‘northern Ireland’ types living in Donaghmore, Malone and Newcastle are happy with their new police service and parity of esteem legislation. Clever people keeping their heads in the sand from 1975 onwards.
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Dont really know why you are having a go at Malone types plenty of whom vote for SF these days and your story is sad but many people catholics included have equally nasty stories about the IRA many of whom lived in West Belfast but over the last 30 years moved to the Malone area to try and get away from the nonsense – the cheek of them. I grew up on the malone myself and one of my many experinces of the troubles was those heroes of Ireland blowing up my golf club with my sister her friend and several kitchen workers all still inside thankfully they all got out, no-one was serioulsly hurt but I still wonder how blowing up a golf club that was 80% catholic and all the people inside at the time of the bombing were catholic, how that advanced the cause for a united ireland. Maybe not a case of keeping their heads in the sand but maybe just maybe trying to get on with their lives as best they can
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I know you probably don’t mean this but it sounds like you think the IRA should have blown up protestant golf clubs? One of the worries I have is that Ann Travers voice was effective partly because she was Catholic and an IRA victim.
The IRA should have kept clear of targeting protestants too.
Anyhow all credit to Ann Travers she has been very badly treated by the IRA and also she deserves a lot of credit for the courage and eloquence she has displayed.
I hope this encourages a lot more victims to come forward and tell their story – regardless of their religion.
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Factual,
I couldn’t disagree more strongly with that
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Boondock, Galbally is presently, now that most of the British Crown Forces have withdrawn, an absolutely great place to live and rear a family. The NINIS census covering crime and public order issues placed Altmore ward – 85% Galbally – 577 out of 578, in an ascending order with 1 being a criminal cesspit and 578 being the most harmonious place in wee Ulster. So given that Northern Ireland is currently among the safest places in the West to live this must make Galbally paradise on Earth!
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And just to think that that loyalist/UDR apologist fool Ken Maginnis MP wanted a wall build around Galbally, a ‘cordon sanitaire’ to contain its people from disturbing the rest of East Tyrone. And those eejits in Donaghmore GAA – unfortunate circumstances later enlightened them – invited that imperialist to be guest of honour at their annual dance. Ye its gobsmacking you Uncle Toms have the brass neck to comment at all on Republicans…..Seamus Mallon your a ‘Muppet’!
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Couldnt be more wrong Factual Im emphasising the catholic point because the previous post was having a go at catholics from that area sticking their head in the sand and said how they ”hated what those irredentist Gaels got up” not only is it a massive sweeping statement but those that were indifferent to the IRA campaign probably had good reason for example blowing up somewhere where they socailised and tried to have a break from the troubles might annoy them just a bit.
As for Ann Travers voice being effective because she was catholic, maybe but back to hierarchy of victims I think the big thing here is just how horrific the incident was where to start, her age the attempted execution of her mother whilst she was holding her dying daughter all happening on a church car park as the victims had just left mass again maybe a number of the malone types present that day were not too impressed by what they saw.
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Black-ops? The Travers’ incident cant be ruled out as another dirty trick as just recently ann travers herself stated that she was told that the 2 gunmen were agents of the crown. She’ll quickly find herself on her own if she starts asking questions of secret british terror activities’. Downing St wouldnt answer the door to her. Is it totally implausible that brit agents within the IRA were allowed to kill people in an effort to discredit the Republican movement? After all the best way to defeat a guerilla army is to win the hearts and minds of its community. And nothing angers and horrifies true republicans’ more than when republicans’ are seen to be deliberately killing innocent people.
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Wolf Tone,
Can you reference that?
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Or the fact that he was a Catholic who was collaborating with the British forces of occupation in Ireland made him a prime target, pour encourager les autres?
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Big Al’s cuts through the bullshit: http://goo.gl/VT1OA?
“Victims have been for fifteen years promised truth, promised solutions promised reconciliation promised hope and are not getting closure.”
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MIck,
Back to the central point. Who are the victims? There are 3 distinct types of victim. Combatants on all sides, Innocent parties on all sides and thirdly, the families of those victims, on all sides. In my view the families all feel pain equally
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In mine too. That’s the root of their equality. And it should be absolute. But, as Alex Maskey has noted, the murders hold particular value to particular families. And that may inform their subsequent actions.
The principle Ms Travers has established is that even if a perpetrator is also a victim, the consequence of their particular act (if brought before the courts) has an irreduceable value outside and beyond their status as a victim in their own right.
In other words, being a victim cannot/does not excuse the actions of perpetrators…
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Ta bron orm, my mistake. The Travers’ were told by an ex special branch cop that ONE of the gunmen was am informer and that there was a cover up which included destroying the weapon. The ombudsman could not prove that a cover up happened but that doesnt mean that it didnt happen.
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From the BBC…
‘No RUC cover up’ in 1984 murder
The Police Ombudsman has dismissed claims detectives protected a suspected IRA killer from being charged with murder because he was an informer.
Investigators also found nothing to suggest police had prior evidence which could have prevented the 1984 murder of Mary Travers, 22, in south Belfast.
Resident Magistrate Tom Travers and his family were attacked as they left Mass. He was shot six times but survived.
Nuala O’Loan criticised Special Branch for not passing on all information.
A woman was convicted of the attack, but a man known as Man A was acquitted of the same charges.
Mr Travers had identified him from police photographs and an informal ID parade as the man who shot him, and 20 years later a Sunday newspaper suggested he was a Special Branch informant and a “protected species”.
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Ah of course WT – the Brits now shot Mary Travers too (well they effectively did even if they didn’t pull the trigger).
Everything PIRA did which at the time didn’t leave SF spokesperson unavailable for comment or looking embarrassed was acceptable to those who now vote Sinn Fein particularly those not born at the time (shooting off duty prison officers at weddings, blowing up police station cleaners and their families, placing no warning bombs in restaurants, blowing up unionist residential areas and bars, tying cleaners to their car seats and using them as human bombs, basically anything involving so called legitimate targets (sic or should that be sick)) was a heroic action now warranting the presentation of a campaign medal and obviously an amnesty because they only did it because they were denied the vote 30 years previously.
However anything vaguely not cricket (Enniskillen, Darkley, the shooting in the back of a young catholic teacher leaving mass who was a legitimate target because her father had the temerity to be a judge and I believe deal with certain Sinn Fein members appearing before him on terrorist charges which has been the legal professions belief as to why he was singled out) well that sort of stuff was clearly the work of British black ops because Republicans would never do anything like that (the money from America might dry up!)
That sort of attitude is why all unionists and indeed all right thinking people support the recent bill – because history should not be rewritten to obliterate murders like the murder of Mary Travers which despite others here minimising her role Mary McArdle was a vital cog in and even if she regrets the death of Mary she makes no secret that had Tom died as well or instead she would have rejoiced not mourned.
No-one in “The Troubles” was perfect which is why everyone convicted of the relevant offences is excluded from Spadship but only republicans (so far0 have sought to employ such ex combatants – Jim Allister may in the opinion of some here be Ulster’s no 1 bigot but and supported Torrens knight’s case 9which apparently has some merit according to his legal team) but he certainly didn’t seek to employ him!
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I think the IRA viewed anyone who administered english law in Ireland was an legitimate target, full stop. I think we can also assume if the english rulers’ hadnt planted in Ireland there wouldnt have been an IRA and therefore no ‘troubles’. Thats neither here nor there now. If those ‘heroic’ brit servicemen in afghanistan with all the resources at their disposal view the 12yrold son of a suspected insurgent as cannon fodder, as the ‘heroically’ drop a 1000lb bomb on their shack, from 2 mile in the sky then yes the IRA were brave in comparison. Wouldnt it have been more acceptable if the IRA were more ‘surgical’, ie used drones?? Lastly, Torrens knight. Another brit militia agent who has been well rewarded for his services to the crown, ie he doesnt need employment, they just put cash in his bank account for him.
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http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/wreath-laying-event-for-victims-of-ira-bombing-1-5183089
6 more legitimate targets executed by the brave (sic) warrior of the IRA who by the time their no warning bombs exploded were a lot more than 2 miles away no doubt toasting their success at punishing 6 pensioners for the crimes of their ancestors in planting Ulster (ignoring the fact that their own Celtic ancestors were guilty of exactly the same “crime”….)
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Correct. The plantation of Ireland was a crime. At last somebody gets it.)
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I take it you are referring to the plantation by the Celts ;-p
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Behave lads please 😉
Otherwise we’ll be onto the vikings, the normans and God knows who else
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