The whole debacle regarding the Haass discussions encapsulates what passes for political debate in this part of the world and why it is disfunctional in terms of a broader political worldl .
The very fact that two respected diplomats had to be imported with the aim of achieving agreement between supposedly mature politicians speaks volumes. The fact that it was a failed initiative is an indictment of what passes for democracy in six counties of a remote island on the edge of Europe with a colonial recent past and an acute sense of history.
The discussions centred on three areas. 1.Symbols, including flags, 2. Parades and commemorations, and 3.the legacy of the past.
If I may here’s my take on it all (in brackets) in no particular order:
Parades:
- With rights come responsibilities. (Agreed)
- It is the duty of elected politicians to uphold the rule of law in this regard. (Agreed- are you listening Nelson and Nigel?)
- Let’s devolve responsibility for this locally. (Hmmm, is Stormont ready for this? although it does repatriate some powers)
- There follows a lot of guidelines about how to adjudicate on contentious parades. (Good luck with that one)
Flags and emblems.
- Flags and emblems are important to people but we couldn’t agree on anything. (Surprise surprise)
- Lets establish a commission and talk it out in a couple of months ( Sweet holy mother…….
The Past.
The first mistake here was not actually defining the past due to the fact the definition ranges, as most readers will know, from anything in the past 800 to the past 40 years. The second mistake was the inability to define a “victim”. 3000 “conflict related” victims are referred to. I would perhaps argue the figure is much higher and spread over a greater timeframe and geography.
The final part discusses cost. I will not dignify it with any response on my part.
There is no mention of the Irish language or equality of nationality or expression of that nationality. I cannot see a single thing here of benefit to the nationalist people of the North. Perhaps I am wrong?
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"We in coming days may be" 
Why are the nationalist parties so eager to do a deal? The parades commission seems to be able to stand up to the OO. The flying of flags is also going in a nationalist favour eg bcc. The past: bloodly Sunday tribunal and or progress. The Republicans should also help victims every time. This would not only help victims but show good faith to all. Also the parade and flag protects will weeken and fracture Unionism. Maybe I am being too confrontational.
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NavanMan.
nationalists are NOT anxious to deal a deal. They are anxious to be SEEN to want to a deal. Completely different.
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I tend to agree, very poor document for the Irish communities of the north-east with lots of stuff that is either Unionist in nature or Unionist-favouring. An “agreed NI” flag is simply pandering to a Pro-Union “Northern Ireland” nationalism as espoused by the likes of NI1921 while much else is simply a denial or avoidance of Irish national identity. The identities of both communities (flags, languages, etc.) must be on an equal footing and expressed as they wish.
The bizarre thing is that Unionist political leaders can get away with this two-faced nonsense now but when the foot is on the other foot in a reunited Ireland they will probably be still getting away with it. As always those most ready to do violence or with access to the biggest guns are the ones who call the shots.
Nice though to see the Alliance exposed for the power-hungry parasites that they are. Their interests are entirely self-interest, getting votes, getting quangos, getting subsidies and staying in with the wine and cheese circle. Despicable politicos.
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Agreed about Alliance. Reading the document, all I could think was “here’s more jobs for the boys and girls on the gravy train.”
Must say, I’d love to have a rattle as a commissioner on the “new” parading body. Imagine having someone who actually knows what goes on behind the scenes to organise band and Orange parades!? It would almost be revolutionary!
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I’m volunteering to join you there!
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Mr Dub….you are correct.
My position four years ago ….when I first became aware of Conflict Resolution via Slugger O’Toole was that the GFA 1998 was the only chance. I did not want academics screwing it up. It belongs to me, my wife, my children and since 2002 my grandchildren. We are here for the long haul.
If thats my basic position…I have refined it. GFA isNOT a Settlement. It was minimalist.
At worst it brought Peace and allowed for Demographics to take its course.
For all kinds of reasons…inability, laziness, sniping from extremes, lack of support by Govts…the chances to move on were lost in the first few years.
If we couldn’t or wouldn’t do it with UUP and SDLP…it cant or wont be done by DUP and SF.
Theres basic physics involved. You have to build a large building from the ground up. Cant just start half way up.
So the Conflict Resolutionists are confounded. …again.
On the specifics of Haass. Was any deal ever possible?
Flags.
If either nationalist party had rowed back on Belfast or agreed to the flying of a British flag in Derry, they would be crucified in May Elections. It would have been a backward step….for nationalists.
Parades.
Who really cares if Orangemen are still camped at Twaddell Avenue in six months time. Certainly there was rumour of a “break thru” (a good will gesture) to get them “home” but nobody in nationalism can really be annoyed. The Twaddell Avenue people will provide six months more entertainment.
The Past.
Every year the Past recedes. Its now two full decades since the IRA Ceasefire. A person would have to be about 35 years of age to have any sense of The Troubles. And theres fewer every year. Its an ageing and dying group of people and frankly the older we get, the more likely we are to say “let it go”
Too many vested interests on both sides of the Irish Sea to really want the Truth to emerge. And they….retired Special Branch, retired IRA, retired spooks and retired politicians will be mutually supportive to ensure their reputations stay intact.
We KNOW the Truth. Making the Truth “official” helps Nobody.
And there is a vested interest in setting up a Truth Commission. It will be a nice little earner for academics (next time I see you I will hand you a list of names who will be on the Truth Commission if its ever established…..and if it ever happens we can publish the names). Take a look at the jockeying for position in seminars, web sites, and message boards. See what I mean? LOL
So it was doomed to failure AND I AM. DELIGHTED
Because the three issues are simply NOT important to People. NOT ENOUGH people.
Five parties fought 2011 on Manifestos.
They (well two did) knocked your door and mine and said. “This is what I believe” and we voted for them or we didnt.
They have a mandate.
They fought on Manifestos, not Negotiating Positions.
Consider how ridiculous it is for the Golden Halo (guess their preferred Party) and LetsGetAlongerists to say that Four parties abandon their positions.
Its UNDEMOCRATIC.
And I for one congratulate the Parties for holding firm.
These issues are…for now….unimportant.
There is no need for a Settlement.
Time is on “OUR” Side.
The Settlement campaign is little more than an attempt by (liberal) unionists to frustrate the Demographics.
Of course there is a minor victory for nationalists in the court of public opinion. They SAID they wanted compromise but didnt really mean it. How could they? The Unionists were never going to deal.
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FJH, it must be remembered (and I’m pretty sure you’ve said it before yourself) that the liberal unionists are those in favour of the status quo for their own selfish reasons; SoS already touched on the Alliance efforts to get another carriage or two onto their gravy train.
I suppose we all have our selfish and strategic interests, there’s no such thing as an idealist when you have a job/house/family/mistress/rentboy to worry about losing so they (and maybe us too?) are all out for the best possible deal. For the politicians in NI, it’s the continuance of the sectarian headcount.
And let’s get this straight, while it would be nice (from their view) to remain the largest party of the largest section of the community, the DUP won’t care a jot if they are the largest party of the smallest section of the community, just as long as they are there at the trough. If they want to stay tough and pick up the votes, that’s what they’ll do.
The stuttering of Haass will suit those with time on their side, it’ll show to the chattering classes that lack of leadership that unionism is always accused of, it’ll play well with the Alliance crowd that they couldn’t trust the others to think of the children. But it is just putting issues off for another day. The longer that goes on, Irish unity gets closer but so too does the next phase of conflict. And I think that while the dissident threat at present and in the near future is the main difficulty to be faced, there is a brewing threat from loyalism. Given the right (or wrong) circumstances, this could turn out to be the more lethal one.
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lol at BD. Will you march to my tune, though?! I think the issue of agreement is paramount but designing just who is local will be the “hard” bit.
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I regard myself as a local, my family are one of the oldest Ulster families and are a name that may be seen on maps going back to the 1400’s. My Dublin accent is something of a feint.
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As a native American I don’t believe in the ownership of land so you won’t see my name on any maps. Just grafitti. Big Crouching Hippo wuz ‘ere!
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BD,
tend to agree with that – and dont see how SF could agree to code of conduct on parades – although the definitions of ‘paramilitariy’ might have given rise to some interesting court cases.
To put Haass in the broader picture – the DUP appeared to have moved on 3 siginificant issue in the last year or so. It is not clear (to me) why when they were not under real pressure to do so.
Firstly on the Maze/Long Kesh – from which they retreated. (Perhaps an agreement between Marty on Robbo which is not in the public domain).
Secondly on Council Reform, which will speed up the greening of Belfast – they have not retreated on this – yet.(Perhaps they simply didnt think this through).
Thirdly on agreeing to Haass – who was unlikely to (and didnt) come up with proposals they could agree with. (Perhaps the pressure of the flag/parades protests).
Regarding Alliance – they had the balls to vote on principle over flags I really dont understand why they are the targets of such abuse here?
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carrcially,
Given that the OO were involved in the talks – can you explain how these new proposed arrangments on parades would lead to better outocmes for them?
I presume what is going on is that the OO, in order to save face need the Parades Commission to go – and everybody seems happy to along with that to get them off that hook.
Apart from face-saving it seems ludicrous to me that the OO would want a body replaced whose memebers are picked by the SOS by a body whose members are picked (in part) by SF.
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Sammy, I can see the big issue being the replacement of the PC (a headline grabber and a vote winner in the short term for DUP if they can/could have achieve(d) it).
However, I think the people in the OO delegated to the talks or involved in the background are an eclectic mix. Gibson is very well regarded and has spoken widely and in private, taking on board different views. The fudge at the centre of any new body would allow community reps and OO members to be on the panel itself, if things work out for the best. There is a recognition that SF control some of those groups so you may as well figure out a way of talking to them.
I said a while back that the past was actually the big issue and that DUP shouldn’t get hoisted on the parades and flags petards. It seems they haven’t.
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carrickally,
re. “The fudge at the centre of any new body would allow community reps and OO members to be on the panel itself, if things work out for the best. There is a recognition that SF control some of those groups so you may as well figure out a way of talking to them.”
This seems extraordinary to me sitting on the green side of the fence and it is a failing of the media that the OO havent been fored onto some open ground to explain themselves.
I firmly believe that the majority of people* in Green Field Number 4 do not want the parties to be in charge of parades for fear of complete sirpatrickmayhem.
*For me any power passed from Britain back to ussuns(Prods and Fenains) is to be encouraged.
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New post up on Haass by FJH: http://fitzjameshorselooksattheworld.wordpress.com/2014/01/02/i-welcome-the-haass-failure/
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Sammy, I think the extraordinary thing is probably because we all hear (and rightly so) about the lack of co-operation within communities, such as in EB and Ardoyne. However, for every one of those there’s a community where an Orange mayor can go to a Catholic funeral and be thanked by the priest for showing quietly and with dignity a sense of leadership, with Irish dancing groups being welcomed to perform at cultural nights in the Orange Hall and with mixed music evenings in the church.
The good/semi-normal things don’t get reported and in a way that’s ok (not as exciting as a riot or a binliner on a window so doesn’t make for good telly) but there is then a lack of perspective.
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carrickally,
as the status quo favours Unionism – i.e. youones are in bed with your favoured partner, the quareone from over the water, whilst we Nats would rather the quareone from down South – it has to be admitted that we Nats do like to talk up the failed marriage angle
Prods seem to spend so much time demanding the right to demonstrate their love by flying the Union flag and marching incessantly rather than that cuddling up their preferred quareone.
Do Nats really want ‘their’ 4th Green Field to be peaceful and a success and with that see the chance of UI disappear as Uncle Tom Fenians become the norm? Whatever about the SDLP, I cant beleive SF, fresh(ish), allegedly from their insurgency really do.
The boul FJH, against any sort of gettingalongery (Copyright) is probably more honest about this than most of us.
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You’re right, it’s a vested interest of unionists (and those who might be described as economically unionist or status quoists) for NI to be peaceful and prosperous. For nationalists, disturbance and unsettled times are a godsend. Kill republicanism with employment should be the new mantra from Westminster for the 21st century.
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carrick amigo,
re. “Kill republicanism with employment should be the new mantra from Westminster for the 21st century.”
Do me a favour and keep that to yourself.
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Carrickally,
For 50 years, Unionism tried to control the nationalist population by means of, shall we say, encouraging emigration. That wasn’t exactly a success.
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I think 30 miles worth of peace lines might point to something seriously wrong.
Irish Dancing in Orange Halls.
Would like to see that.
Orangemen turning up at Catholic funerals, hmmm, sadly those Orangemen i know didn’t go that far for their own family members.
There’s hope yet in NI.
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My take on the talks was that nationalists were definitely on the backfoot as far as the final proposals were concerned – the tone of the document was overwhelmingly pro unionist. The SDLP and SF are playing a dangerous game pushing for talks on the basis of Haass. I suppose they think that they can row it back. It also teaches us that unionism will always snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Here is my take for what it is worth.
http://croiteir.blogspot.com/2014/01/haass-talks-failure-good-for-nationalism.html
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Two Free States on the one island, now that would be interesting.
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Croiteir, just put a similar comment on your website. The only issue I have seen which is a potential problem for Nats/Republicans is as I mentioned above regarding paramilitart parades – and has been highlighted by Eamonn McCann in the IT.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/northern-ireland-taking-failure-of-haass-talks-with-great-equanimity-1.1641517?page=2
“is As an instance: the proposed ban on parades involving emblems or uniforms associated with banned organisations would rule out commemorations such as sparked unionist rage at Castlederg last year”
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Excellent Guest post by Chris Donnelly over at Jude’s place: http://www.judecollins.com/2014/01/post-haas/
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Heres my latest one on the demographics. http://www.endgameinulster.blogspot.ie/2014/01/equality-commission-23rd-monitoring.html?m=1
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Thanks Enda,
Haas has his own website on the talks, here is a link: http://panelofpartiesnie.com/
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