It is interesting that certain Unionists have been making noises recently about a concerted attack on their expressions of cultural identity. It is interesting because the “cultural” identity they are talking about are the gratuitous marching and 
offensive songs of confrontational bands who seem to exist solely with the purpose of offending nationalists and asserting a supremacist ideology. It is unfortunate because, of course, there is nothing “cultural” about it. It actually undermines other Unionists who are a little more confident in their own identity.
My own belief is that Nationalists have no issues with expressions of British identity and culture as long as they are respectful of those who live alongside them. Live and let live I would say.
Certain Unionists, notably those in Belfast, are having major problems coming to terms with nationalists as equal citizens. Meanwhile there are signs of hope elsewhere.
The Fleadh Cheoil in Derry this week has attracted over 430,000 visitors to the City. 
No riots, no “Flegs”, no problems. Interestingly the Unionist community has participated in what would have been expected to have been viewed as a “nationalist” event. Today, the apprentice boys even joined in. There have been a variety of flute and pipe bands taking part also. Everyone has benefitted and I am sure the economic benefits will be considerable. Yet again, Derry has led the way.
While certain idiots in Belfast were expressing their cultural identity by wrapping themselves in the Union Flag, knockin back the Buckfast, attacking the PSNI with ceremonial swords and whatever else as a means of expressing their “culture” a group of kids in Lurgan were getting on with a somewhat different means of 
cultural identity. ( I included this in a comment below a previous blog). They got together and sang a song by a Swedish singer, in Irish, complete with flutes and Drums. They threatened nobody but they had a great time. The video is out there for a week now and has been viewed 1.2M (yes Million) times. A Swedish song sung in Irish by a group of Lurgan teenagers.
Unlike any expression of Irish culture in the six counties over many years, but particularly the last 90, unionist cultural identity is not under attack. It is not being undermined, sidelined or diminished. It is a matter for Unionists to promote their own culture but on the evidence of the past week at least, it is nationalists who are actually being inclusive of that form of cultural expression as the Unionists of Derry can bear witness to.
Now that’s what I call Culture.
"We in coming days may be" 
I’m pretty sure it is not Lurgan in Armagh. They are from Colaiste Lurgan in County Galway.
Catchy tune either way.
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It is indeed Colaiste Lurgan, Is that not the Armagh Lurgan?
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http://lurgan.biz/
Coláiste Lurgan,
Indreabhán,
Co. na Gaillimhe
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GRMA,
Still, I stand by the general points of the blog 😉
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A bit of a rant there, BD. Especially this part:
“It is interesting because the “cultural” identity they are talking about are the gratuitous marching and Music in Ireland offensive songs of confrontational bands who seem to exist solely with the purpose of offending nationalists and asserting a supremacist ideology. It is unfortunate because, of course, there is nothing “cultural” about it.”
You did note this, “There have been a variety of flute and pipe bands taking part also,” but you failed to note that Caw, Burntollet, Churchill and Pride of the Orange and Blue, some of those confrontational bands you talked about, played offensive songs at Ebrington Square as part of the Fleadh.
Although I would avoid the Maiden City like the plague (in much the same way that the Shankill gives me cold sweats), a huge round of applause must go out to not only the festival organisers but also the participants who took part in what by all accounts was a week of cultural festivities; including the Orange culture that you claim has nothing “cultural” about it.
Here’s Churchill on stage:
In some of the other videos you’ll hear them play Highland Cathedral, the Entertainer, the Gael.
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Antain,
Correction accepted and made 🙂
Carrickally,
Rant? Mise? Never 😉 [Mise is Irish for “me” pronounced “misha”]
Ok, I was trying to draw a distinction in the post between what certain Unionists think is culture and what actually is.
I believe I made that point by drawing a distinction between the success of the Unionist bands that participated in the Fleadh and the likes of the “pride of Ardoyne” who must surely be an embarrasment to most Unionists.
There is nothing cultural about singing the Famine song outside Churches or taking pleasure in winding up the neighbours. Rioting, attacking the cops and blaming everyone in sight for your own behaviour is not a cultural activity.
The band you have shown above and those I referred to in the blog are clearly not in that category. That is the point I am trying to make.
Either way I think we both gain. The bands gain a wider audience than they would ever have a hope of getting otherwise. They are treated with respecBat and appreciation and I see a sight I never would have believed. A Unionist band playing under a Banner written in Irish to a mostly nationalist audience.
Meanwhile, “the Pride of Ardoyne” are still marching in circles……
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Actually, I largely agree with the main thrust of BD’s main post, although also with Carrickally’s significant refinements.
Was on the news tonight one of the flute bands were playing the sash before a nationalist audience and it went down well. The Sash isn’t a sectarian song, but like with all cultural songs it depends when and how its played and like all cultural songs can be open to abuse.
It was also good to see the PSNI Pipe band out in full volume and being very well received – one in the eye for the dissidents of the city.
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I’m going to defend Pride of Ardoyne (who actually aren’t a bad band) and the type of music they play. They’re certainly no Churchill, nor would they ever claim to be. It’s like comparing the musical abilities of a small-time band who know a few chords and some pretty accomplished musicians – a bit like comparing Snow Patrol or Kings of Leon to Pink Floyd or Rush.
They are rough and ready in their musical style, not the most articulate but then afaik, the vast majority of the members come from an area of heavy deprivation. I’d hazard a guess that many of them are either unemployed or underemployed. Perhaps punk-ish, in rock terms? Meanwhile, bands like Churchill, Ballyclare Victoria and Ballygowan will have a fair smattering of the educated types in their ranks. Remember, I’m also a fluter and have a degree lurking in a drawer somewhere. We’re the prog rockers of the band scene – with no cultural capital amongst our cohort but grudgingly recognised as good at what we do.
However, the likes of PoA give a sense of direction to generally young people with time on their hands. They are also in the main (bands in general, not just PoA because I don’t know their circumstances) disciplined. As an example, we had a band on the return parade of the Twelfth this year and every single one of them was stone-cold sober.
I think that bands of all types are becoming more musically adept, more “professional” and more a vehicle for good. This will continue on its own steam and will raise the standards throughout the band scene. As this happens, bands such as PoA will evolve into ones like William King, Mourne Young Defenders or Omagh Protestant Boys. If you get a moment, look those three up on youtube to see the standards of musicianship and stylistic work involved. Then consider that fifteen to twenty years ago they weren’t much different from PoA but have worked towards massive technical improvement and are now “famous” throughout loyalist circles for their ability. I was at a band concert about five years ago where WK played the theme from Pirates of the Caribbean. Brilliant.
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Oh Dear,
Unfortunately, like the DUP, you are defending the indefensible. Until that changes unionism is condemned to march in ever decreasing circles going precisely nowhere.
This is not about musicianship I’m afraid.
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Presumably you are also aware that paramilitary organisations use some bands to groom young people for future membership.
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Carickally,
I’m not sure that either Snow Patrol or the Kings of Leon would take kindly to being compared to a ‘small-time band who know a few chords’. I don’t care for either band myself but both are fairly big bands who have developed to a level of musical ability which enables them to play fairly large venues and record well received big selling albums.
I fear you are showing your age somewhat with your references to Pink Floyd and Rush. After all, everybody knows that Pink Floyd went shit after Syd Barrett left. Neil Peart is a great drummer though. I’ll give you that.
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A good post as always. It’s not ‘Fleadh Céol’ though. Don’t want to sound like a pedant but we should get these things right: ‘Fleadh Ceoil’.
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Fleadh Ceoil na hEireann to give it its full title. Calling it the “All Ireland Fleadh” as the BBC call it should be discouraged. If they want to anglicise the meaning its Irish Music Festival.
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Excellent point Enda,
I think that may be worth pointing out to them. Actually I will. E-mail on its way
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If you’re going to be pedantic, Enda (and whyever not!?) it’s Fleadh Cheoil. Great crack was had by all – even self-proclaimed loyalists were enjoying it.
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craic 😉 #pedantic
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I know its probably irrelevant to this post, but I see that the “eye of newt”, in Saturdays Irish News thought that Peter Robinson played a blinder with his statement on Thursday ?) I also see that he has it in for McDevitt, for what reason, I don’t know
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Sean,
He played a blinder alright, for what nationalists have been saying for a long time
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Here’s a good read on topic:
http://www.thedetail.tv/columns/steven-mccaffery/as-the-peace-process-struggles-why-is-derry-different
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Why is Derry different ? Because it’s a majority Nationalist / Republican city whose people and politicians have the confidence not to feel threatened by the acceptance of the other, and in fact positively encourage the minority to assimilate and play an active part in the Citys civic life ?
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To address your central point about ‘culture wars’, it is of course unionist politicians doing what they’ve always done and cynically stoking up people’s worst fears – tradition in other words.
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In a ‘state’ which is subject to constant debate as to its authenticity and longevity, has ‘recently’ come through the troubles and is deeply segregated – expressions of ‘national’ culture are going to be sometimes viewed as potential weapons of a ‘soft’ war.
When Marty talks of ‘equality’ he means (I think ) exual expression of Irishness and Britishness – an interpetation of the GFA which I’m quite keen on as a Fenain but which most Prods I suspect either dont agree with or just dont like.
Many Prods presuamably believe that this ‘equality’ agenda is really about joint-cultural-soverignity and that understandlby means a ‘loss’ from where they are sitting and a ‘gain’ for where us Fenians are sat.
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sexual expression of irishness and britishness?? what like an orgy or something
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Alphiedale,
I think Sammy meant “equal” and I think you know he did 😉
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There would probably be an argument about said orgy; condoms or not, shared space, colours of cacks. Even the numbers might be restricted by the Parades Commission!
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The so-called “culture war” in the north-east of Ireland is being played out across a dozen different European regions and nation-states. A handful can easily accommodate a constant push-pull conflict, some are ready to burst apart, but most are in a never-ending Belgian-like state of perpetual crisis.
However the difference between most of those disputed territories and Ireland and Britain is the colonial history of the latter in the former. Irish history is essentially the history of an African, North American or Australasian country in a European setting with a (relative) uniqueness that sets our struggles apart. There is a history of continuous warfare and conflict here that is closer to the surface than elsewhere in Western Europe. As the two communities in the north-east of the country move towards demographic equilibrium it will be either a continued, muddled make-do or a something far worse.
My own belief is that an observable and demonstrable Irish Nationalist voting/political majority (if not a pro-reunification majority) in the north-east will lead to conflict from a militant minority of British Unionists in terms of renewed separatist violence. Though what its objectives might be (repartition, ethnic cleansing, simple politics-through-the-gun?) and how they might be achieved are hard to see.
That said I sincerely hope I am proved wrong and that violence as a reaction or impediment to political change is a thing of the past.
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Seamas, not often I agree with you but this struck a chord and was something I was saying at the start of the summer:
“My own belief is that an observable and demonstrable Irish Nationalist voting/political majority (if not a pro-reunification majority) in the north-east will lead to conflict from a militant minority of British Unionists in terms of renewed separatist violence. Though what its objectives might be (repartition, ethnic cleansing, simple politics-through-the-gun?) and how they might be achieved are hard to see.
That said I sincerely hope I am proved wrong and that violence as a reaction or impediment to political change is a thing of the past.”
Like you, I hope to be proven wrong.
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Ridiculous typos aside…
What does Marty’s talk of ‘equality’ mean from a Prod persepctive?
Equality of symbols ? Tricolour over city hall 50 % of the time?
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I would doubt many take Marty’s talk of equality seriously. He’s tainted by his past associations and that will not be looked past. He also had the opportunity as Minister of Education (and still does in OFMDFM) to forward the equality agenda and dropped the ball.
When it comes to symbols, parades etc, Marty is coming from the viewpoint of most of the posters on here who haven’t quite accepted that “kultuuuuuur!” on the loyalist side might not be their cup of tea but nevertheless has to be recognised. Without this recognition and hopefully acceptance, then you can’t even begin to address equality in that field.
Duncan Morrow, formerly of the CRC, was keen on neutral space and that has worked on the surface in the workplaces of Ulster (although David Healy’s accuser seems to have had a bit of previous in that area). Perhaps that can be widened across all of society and public areas designated. I’d be against this, as to me it will just paper over the cracks rather than accepting symbols. You’d find a pandora’s box opening up too, with accusations at universities reaching fever pitch over sports tops that our more rural (generally red-headed and pug-ugly) students seem to delight in wearing.
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Carrickally,
Whatever about the bould Marty, the point of the blog is that nationalists have respected and created space for unionists to express their culture. Something which is not reciprocated. Strangely enough Slugger had an article today on the same theme: http://sluggerotoole.com/2013/08/22/a-tale-of-two-constituencies-leadership-acceptance-of-our-competing-narratives/
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Roughly on the subject of culture and cultural expression of national identities, there’s an interesting post on politics.ie by a poster by the name of He3. It concerns an article in the Guardian about newspaper sales in the Wee Six. He writes:
‘The Belfast Telegraph had a daily average of 49,228, a drop of 8.6%. Only 40,000 were sold at full cover price. More than 8,500 copies were given away.
The Irish News fared relatively better, losing 3%. As Roy Greenslade says “With a paid-for sale of 40,842 it can now lay claim to be the largest-selling daily title produced in Northern Ireland – a significant moment in the paper’s history.”
The News Letter lost 6.5%.’
What does it say about Unionism that it’s most strident voice is leaking readers? It seems to me that this isn’t just a question of demographics (there still should be more Protestant readers than Catholic), but more a matter of Protestant disengagement.
He3’s post: http://www.politics.ie/forum/media/214883-newspaper-circulation-continues-plummet-irish-news-outsells-belfast-telegraph.html
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Antain,
Well spotted! I’ve been on that one and am halfway through a post on the subject. I’ll be linking it to the Horseman article on the same subject. Major kudos to the Irish News all the same.
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carrickally,
re. “When it comes to symbols, parades etc, Marty is coming from the viewpoint of most of the posters on here who haven’t quite accepted that “kultuuuuuur!” on the loyalist side might not be their cup of tea but nevertheless has to be recognised. Without this recognition and hopefully acceptance, then you can’t even begin to address equality in that field.”
I think most posters on here or certainly most Nat ‘accept’ (altohugh they may not respect ) Unionist culture i.e. marching – provided there is ‘equality’ e.g. Derry where there is agreement and tolerance on both sides.
But the question remans – does the GFA expect/allow/facilitate/encourage the idea that ussuns symbols are just as valid as youssuns symbols?
Loyalists violence and Unionist defence of that violence seems to suggest that Marty’s view of ‘equality’ post GFA differs from theirs.
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Need I remind you the DUP rejected the GFA.
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sammy
“I think most posters on here or certainly most Nat ‘accept’ (altohugh they may not respect ) Unionist culture i.e. marching – provided there is ‘equality’ e.g. Derry where there is agreement and tolerance on both sides.”
I don’t think there is an acceptance of loyalist culture – I would like to think that I don’t have issues with Irish culture (fleadh, dancing, sports, language) but to expect loyalists to be the mirror opposite (as the Ulster Scots movement seem to want to provide) is to completely misunderstand.
It’s good that there is the level of tolerance in Londonderry that has developed over the last decade; before this, we had Donnacha McNeilis trying to use all parades as a pre-condition to talk with the ABOD and BRG but yet wiser heads prevailed and a local solution was agreed.
Now is the time to resolve parades on a nation-wide scale. I believe that legacy issues must also be addressed too but am worried that all sides (rep, loy and Govt) will all be less than honest.
Without resolving these issues, we cannot address fundamentals of a functioning economy because conflict will repeatedly bite us all in the left cheek.
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carrickally,
re. “Now is the time to resolve parades on a nation-wide scale. I believe that legacy issues must also be addressed too but am worried that all sides (rep, loy and Govt) will all be less than honest.”
Can you explain what the logic of the Orange Order might be in wanting an oragnisation (parades commission) which has no members of its sworn enemy (SF) with an organisation which (probably) will – i.e. along the loines of the ill-fated DUP proposal.
Really cant see how the parades commision can be improved on from a Unionist posiiton? Can you?
Can you suggest any format that might be acceptable to Nats which would be an improvement for Unionists – DUP may have played their shrine-card too early.
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It depends if there is a more “revolutionary” Orange concept, sammy. Perhaps something that would involve initial discussions that would then secure parades in the longer term?
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BD,
I think there is a divergence of views between the ‘2 communities’ on which expressions of culture should be a right i.e. Unionists believe Ulster is a normal of the UK and therefore cultural expressions of Biritshness should be the norm not something they have to negotiate or trade with ussuns – like with the flag – a reasonable point of view – just one I dont happen to agree with.
Which version of events is most in line with the GFA – or is it (creatively) ambigous enough to let both ‘sides’ have thier own view – resulting in continuous spats.
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Sammy, for those of us who question why the Northern statelet exists in the first place it is not that simple of course. It was founded on undemocratic principles under the threat of violence but hopefully things may be resolved in the absence of that threat.
My own opinion is that the demographics will make that happen in a natural and gradual way. That is already happening to an extent. Newry and Derry, for example, are already very much “Irish” towns. Belfast is moving that way although more slowly.
I think the time for creative ambiguity is passed. Someone needs to explain this to Unionists.
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Good post bangordub.
Nationalists becoming the majority (by 2020 at the latest ) will be a major game-changer and the majority increase with each passing year. This will change the dynamic dramatically and will mean that anything less than 50/50 parity of esteem right across the board will simply be untenable.
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bd,
re. “Sammy, for those of us who question why the Northern statelet exists in the first place it is not that simple of course. It was founded on undemocratic principles under the threat of violence but hopefully things may be resolved in the absence of that threat
Your view is largely the same as mine – ‘problem’ is our Unionist friende have a differnet view – ie Ulster is as British as Finchley- hence the fuss over the flag – it is a little disingenous for ussuns to speak of matters of culture as if it there was not a deeply controversial backdrop to many aspects of ‘our’ culture and ‘their’ culture.
.. and the fact that many aspects of Unionist culture are ‘sectarian’, i.e. marching up and down and celebrating our boys taking a hell of a beating inareas where they are not welcome – doesn’t alter that.
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Comment by Daithi on tonights parade in Rasharkin:
“Cloughmills was the first band to pass the residents protest and the first to play ‘The Sash’ at the protest. Dunaghy was the next band to pass carrying a banner dedicated to a UDA member from Coleraine. Silver Plains carried UVF flags, Ahoghill played the Sash to residents. At 7.39pm Pride of the Maine stopped to play tunes to the protestors. Jim Allistair and Robin Swann were standing opposite the protest at the time so I am sure they will only be too glad to testify to this breach of the determination! “
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First to clarify – don’t know how my son Matt is pretending to be his da (me – Jude). I’ll give him a good beating later.
I have evolved a simple way of looking at all these supposedly cultural marches/flags/etc. If we’re doing something (e.g., marching), would we be happy for themuns to be doing the same thing? If yes, that’s fine. If not, then let’s stop doing it (e.g. marching). It’s a bit ‘Do unto others as you would have them do unto you’, only different
I hope that’s sufficiently obscure.
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Lol Jude,
Admit it. He’s better looking than you, which is why you are using the pic….:-)
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