We have all heard the famous quote by the poet and philosopher George Santayana “Those
who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”.
Yet in the north eastern counties of this island, we like to recreate the past. We seem to revel in it. We are about to enter the marching season again. It is all too depressingly predictable. We had a taster last week with the comic opera surrounding Gerry Kelly, the PSNI and the march past St Patricks.
I, myself, tend to agree with the opinions of Jude Collins that it is a display of triumphalism and supremacy at its heart although I know readers here may disagree. Is it all about the 1690 thing where the monarchy was fought against by the planters? Is it about land? Is it about political power? Is it about commemorating the dead of War? Personally I view the deaths of many thousands of Irishmen during WW1 as a tragedy down to appalling leadership and a misguided appeal to patriotism for political ends by those who had no regard for the lives they wasted. It is right and proper to commemorate the dead but is it honest to commemorate the cause in which they died as just without properly examining the context and historical perspective?
I also find it interesting that the watchwords for Loyalists tend to be words such as “follow”, “Royal” and of course, “Loyal”. Interesting that leadership and independent thinking are absent, particularly given the protestant premium put on independence of thought, personal responsibility and rejection of central authority. I am no expert however on either loyalism or protestantism and it is perhaps unfair to mix the two. I know that republicanism is not a catholic thing any more than unionism is a protestant thing. Despite the best efforts of those who would benefit from such a link.
Indeed it was presbyterians in times past who were the most republican of all in line with their faith. They suffered as much as any catholic from the vagaries of the british establishment.
Given that only 16% of people actually want their areas bedecked in flags what’s the chances that we may get through the next few months and still be talking?
Alternatively, unlike the TUV or the DUP in Lisburn, might we have moved on by next September?
"We in coming days may be" 
Interesting post and very little to disagree with there.
We will be out tonight to commemorate the men of our District who did not come back from France, a day after our Church Parade.
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Have a good evening Carrickally.
Perhaps things will have really started to move on when I can publicly commemorate those who died for what I believe in.
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If i remember right back in the late 90s when parades were a big issue i recall the Somme parades only dated from the 1960s at most.
Seemed nobody gave a toss for 50 years about the Somme parade scene until the republicans pulled, 1916 50 years on, out the hat.
If i asked in my local area for names of local men who died during WW1 i’d be left with blank looks.
I know, i tried a few years back at a history talk.
99 years on it’s doubtful anybody would know the names of a dead relative never mind a family that moved house, area or country.
Maybe a parade about the Somme is closer in time than the Boyne.
If you can name proven relatives that died at the Boyne i’ll sing the Old Orange Flute on You-Tube.
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I’d say you’d be lucky to get name-checked Boyners outside of the Anglican landed families; a combination of lack of church records and pensions would probably rule it out for most.
When it comes to the Somme, I’m reminded of it every Monday night. Our bandhall’s roll of honour contains plenty of relatives who served. Also, thoughts are back to a great-uncle who died in North Africa with the RAF.
I’m pretty sure our Somme commemoration in EB has been going on since the early twenties when the memorial at Gelston’s corner was unveiled.
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Hadn’t spotted the flags question in the NILT survey, although the real question is what will be done about this inane and hugely divisive practice?
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RJC,
I probably should have blogged on it. The link makes interesting reading. The antipathy to “flegs” is pretty close on both sides.
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2012/Community_Relations/FLAGLAMP.html
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25% of “Protestants” supporting flag flying is surprisingly high though as against 11% “Catholic”. The 12% support from “No Religion” is also a bit odd.
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Feckin knew you’d pick me up on that……….. Agreed. I’m gonna have to do a blog now 🙂
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@BD,
Looking forward to it 😉
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I’m confused Carrickally, are you saying your band hall has a Roll of Honour of the men who served.
I’d have thought a R of H would only list those who died.
Your and yours are very lucky if a list survives of veterans rather than just the war dead because you can then get the person war record.
Even in a close community and NI is one of the closest, community wise, in these islands that still has the same families branches living close by from a 100 years ago.
Try that in a English or Scottish city.
Urban Redevelopement would wipe out more families than a German machine gun.
I was told a tall tale many years ago of a man who had quiet WW1 sitting it out in the Navy.
Only in the 21st Century did i see the man’s war record which told me of an outfit called the Naval Division.
Too many sailors and not enough ships.
So Churchill rounded them in 1916 and sent them to the Western Front.
Old gramps was wounded at the third battle of Passchendale in 1917.
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PT, the Naval Division feature prominently in war graves in Flanders.
Rolls of Honour that I’ve seen include all serving members; Queens and Stranmillis have them, as does the City Hospital and the Churches of Belfast. It’s quite difficult to track down memorials for those places that have closed (churches and places of work such as the Great Northern yards). Many South Belfast churches have their own plus at least one other memorial in the building. St Simon’s has Drew Memorial’s, Fitzroy has Donegall Pass plus Crescent’s.
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Encouraging that the marching season seems to be going well so far.
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Yes Factual
Give it time though. I think the OO need to come around to the idea of discussions though
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Yes Bangordub they still have a way to travel in terms of discussions with local Catholic residents.
Do you think that OO should be encouraged to do a tasteful and respectful parade in Dublin? A way of showing that we in Dublin are not – in broad terms – against their traditions? Might be good for them in terms of challenging their perceptions etc?
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Factual,
Would you feel OK with a march through Dalkey by a fraternity dedicated to a denial of your identity singing songs about wading in the blood of Dalkeyites?
I am fully in favour of engaging in discussions and accomodating diversity but sometimes outright bigotry needs to be confronted and faced down. I have no doubt that individual orangemen are not bigots and that their beliefs should be listened to and respected but perhaps they need to have an internal conversation first? I’d be happy, for example, to discuss this with Carrickally and his lodge. I imagine he would have no problem with that but his lodge…….no chance
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I wouldn’t want them to sing anything bad about Dalkeyites etc., or sectarian songs, but I am sure mutually agreeable traditional songs ones could be agreed.
I would think that if it was respectful and hospitably received it could be a good learning experience for them regarding the south.
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Factual,
I agree. Now wouldn’t it be a good idea to do the same up north?
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Yes I think it would be a good idea, if they want to parade in a Catholic stronghold, that they talk to the residents groups.
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factual and bangordub, I’ll go over a few points that you raised, not necessarily in order:
On the Catholic stronghold statement, no Belfast parades pass through areas that could be termed as such.
At Ardoyne shops, the houses across the road in Twadell Ave are part of the Shankill. The houses on the left of the Crumlin Rd further up are a mixed area. Just below the Ardoyne shops are the only houses that are part of Ardoyne, around 20 at most.
At Short Strand, there are no houses on the Newtownards Rd except in a loyalist area beside Pitt Park, opposite the chapel. On the Albertbridge Road, the houses are at least 100yds from the parade route and separated by trees and three lanes countrybound.
At Springfield Road, there’s a group of 10 or so houses on the left side of the road.
At Donegall St, there are no houses on the road.
It’s very easy to respect those people who live in the houses that most of those parades pass, as they are over and done with in less than 10 minutes. Instead, we have residents groups that seem to be springing up (New Lodge and Dungiven as very recent examples) in an effort to force confrontation.
Now the OO have said that they will talk to the parishoners at Donegall St last year, they apologised for offence caused as the whole issue was initially painted as being disrespectful outside the chapel. It then very quickly became a vehicle for the residents’ group(s) to complain about trailcoating “through” their area.
On a Dublin parade, perhaps you are aware that Dublin and Wicklow were unable to hold a parade before the Love Ulster nonsense because their safety could not be guaranteed? At the time I thought that was ridiculous because Dublin was proving itself to be a much more progressive place than NI. Since then, I’ve witnessed the alarming rise of SF in Dublin and it becomes clear that there are still people fooled by their heady mix of pseudo-socialism and romantic republicanism.
On an internal discussion, I would hope that the OO are on the way to doing this. It’s amazing though to consider that at the Somme Anniversary parade the numbers of Orangemen is small compared to the wider community that, while not members, obviously show an affinity.
We can lead the way by facilitating a discussion within our community and one of my key thoughts has always been that we should reach inward at the same time as reaching outward. I’ll be having a chat with my lodge over the Twelfth to see about organising a discussion. As an individual, I’m more than happy to meet up for a discussion at any time (except the evenings, the real boss would kill me!).
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OK Carrickally,
I think Factual can answer most of your points above as they are relevant to her comments. I also think we can agree that there are comparitively few contentious parades although I note your point that there may be a political agenda.
I would take issue with you on two things:
“Now the OO have said that they will talk to the parishoners at Donegall St last year, they apologised for offence caused as the whole issue was initially painted as being disrespectful outside the chapel. It then very quickly became a vehicle for the residents’ group(s) to complain about trailcoating “through” their area.”
The march along Donegall St was patently offensive. There is plenty of evidence of that and I have blogged on it at length last year. It could have been dealt with swiftly and simply but, as usual, the OO made a dogs dinner of their PR. In a business sense they would be insolvent.
Regarding the Dublin or Wicklow parade, it was a red rag to a lot of bulls in Dublin when wee Willie got involved.
I doubt anyone in Dublin would feel threatened or intimidated by a troop of gents from Dublin or Wicklow taking a stroll through their capital city. What changed things was the involvement of some of the more unsavoury elements taking part.
Why do the OO continue to allow this to happen?
While I’m at it, do the OO condone the flying of the red hand commando flags along their parade route in Bangor? That sends a message. An unsubtle message.
Regarding the idea of a discussion, I’d be up for that
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BD, you’ve got that horrible Love Ulster parade confused with the one alluded to here:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/politics/orange-order-aims-to-open-lodges-across-republic-160769.html
I’m actually surprised it was as far back as 2000 that they were going to parade. I think they were invited to take part in the Dublin Lord Mayor’s parade but were dissuaded from doing so a couple of years after that.
On the subject of flags on lamposts, it’s a paramilitary pissing on the edges of their territory. They have been up to it in Carrick near the golf course, where the bonfire site used to be (now a lovely, newly built fold).
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I just saw this news story, which is very encouraging:
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/co-donegal-village-prepares-for-annual-orange-parade-1-5248506
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Factual,
Firstly it’s in the Newsletter so I would advise a secondary source, not that I’d have any issues with them marching wherever they want as long as they are not a threat to their neighbours. Secondly, have you ever attended a march? Thirdly, Carrickally ,makes some good points above, I’ve left the field open for you to reply, fair enough?
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This does suggest that it’s not ground hog territory – this is something new, in that sense pretty encouraging.
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More encouraging developments up north
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23186909
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Very very encouraging news
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23186909
The protestants up north deserve credit for this.
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In fact both sides deserve credit.
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Gerry Kelly has welcomed this with generous words from him for all. #Encouraging.
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First of all, many Protestants in the north hold the Orange Order in contempt. Secondly, of all the Ornage Order should re-route their deliberately provocative parades. As soon as they do this they’ll deserve credit – but not before.
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A good first step.
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Do you know if there is an OO parade in London this year, Carrickally?
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I have no idea, factual. Last year’s big one was for the Jubilee and helped my dad complete his hat-trick of parading the three British Grand Lodge jurisdictions.
I’ve trumped him by watching the Toronto twelfth, though. 🙂
Rossknowlagh is the Donegal Twelfth parade, it’s the only surviving Irish Orange parade. The 1930’s saw Monaghan and Cavan stop due to “local difficulties.” There’s never been any trouble on the beach.
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I think there should be a push on to go back to the Monaghan and Cavan ones; we live in a tolerant society one hopes in which there must be freedom and room for all to express their culture..
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I know that there is a decline in the OO but to claim that there is only one surviving Irish Orange parade is simply not true
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Seems perhaps to send a funny message out that there are so many P/L/U/B parades north of the border and so few south of the border; it *looks* bad, as though P/U/L/B traditions are not encouraged south of the border. As a precursor to a UI might be worth having some more, to encourage PLUB communities to see that their cultures can thrive in a UI..
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Why don’t you arrange one in Dalkey, factual? I hear it’s full of West Brits at this time of year. Why not invite the KKK over to burn some crosses too? I hear they’re full of ‘progressive labour values’.
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The Irish President used to visit Orange Halls – it’s called outreach.
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Interesting to see a OO parade has taken place in Donegal – no trouble according to Newsletter
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