I spent yesterday in Crumlin Rd Jail. It was an experience.
From Wiki:
“Tom Williams was hanged in Crumlin Road Gaol Belfast at 8a.m. on Wednesday 2nd September 1942. The executioner was the official English hangman Thomas Pierrepoint, assisted by his nephew Albert Pierrepoint. Afterwards Williams’ body was interred in unhallowed ground in an unmarked grave within the grounds of the prison. His remains were only released in January 2000 after the closure of the prison in 1996 and a lengthy campaign by the National Graves Association, Belfast.
Before Williams was executed he inscribed some messages on the backs of some playing cards. On one he wrote “To ever who receives this to pray for me always & pray for the cause for which I am dying. God Save Ireland….”[1] Father Alexis who witnessed the execution spoke after to his friends in the prison chapel. “I met the bravest of the brave this morning”, he said, “Tom Williams walked to that scaffold without a tremor in his body. The only people who were shaking were us and the hangman. Father Alexis concluded by saying to the remaining prisoners, “I’ve one other thing to say to you. Don’t pray for Tom Williams, pray to him, for at this moment Tom is a saint in heaven.” [1]“
The tour was first class. my guide was knowledgable, friendly and excellent at his job. What struck me was the small details, particularly how fellow prisoners had etched in the raw grey stone wall the initials and date of execution of Tom above his unmarked grave. A small dignity denied him by the state that murdered him.
The inhumanity of the state that buried him could not not be more clearly compared with the empathy of his friends. It was moving.
"We in coming days may be" 
Good post, BD. I note that the constant failure of Republicanism, factionalism, effects even the honouring of our revolutionary dead. There are now three National Graves Associations, the all-Ireland organisation and two rival ones in Belfast and Tyrone.
The Irish government and the Office of Public Works has been shameful in its lack of state support for the maintenance of such graves and monuments.
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What was Tom Williams convicted of?
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Here’s a link to the Wiki entry, Carrickally: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Williams_(Irish_republican)
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So he was part of a gang that murdered an RUC man, and presumably a fellow Roman Catholic? Father Alexis sounded like a right bullshitter and scumbag of the highest order.
This part is from you is pretty objectionable: ” A small dignity denied him by the state that murdered him.” I can see why you put on a link to Wikipedia rather than telling me straight what he was convicted of.
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If you wish we could go into the whole question of definitions but consider how you would interpret a situation where a British Soldier was captured by his enemies and then hanged.
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If a British soldier murdered a policeman at that time, he would have been hanged. Doubly damnable as we were in the middle of a life and death struggle with an even bigger fascist organisation than the IRA.
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As far as Tom was concerned I suspect he may have taken a view that he was a soldier of a legitamate government fighting an occupying force in his own country.
I understand that you will not share that view.
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@carrickally
“…we were in the middle of a life and death struggle with an even bigger fascist organisation than the IRA.”
Oh yes, that struggle which involved obliterating 600,000 German women and children from 20,000 feet (not to mention civilian attacks on other European cities and towns). And you used the word murder without a hint of irony.
The ‘we’ you allude to entered a conflict which had absolutely nothing to do with them. (Sound familiar?)
And how would you regard a Frenchman or other nationality who was occupied killing those who were linked or worked for the occupiers?
Amusingly, the British became involved in two World Wars – apparently to protect defenseless, smaller nations. That obviously never applied to Ireland.
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Would you have shared that view? I’m not judging, just trying to understand if it’s still a widely held totem, similar to Nathan Hale or Shaheed Bhagat Singh.
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Ceannaire, I’m actually very proud of the German aspect of my family. Living there for close to a decade will do that.
So, do you believe that a gang member who played a role in murdering a Catholic policeman should be held up as a glowing example of virtue, a saint?
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A saint? Absolutely not! However, I do understand the circumstances he and his comrades found themselves in.
And my point back about WW2 – many have done things they would not normally dream of doing but for the circumstances they lived in.
Carrickally, in relation to your final sentence – I don’t look at Tom as part of a ‘gang’. I don’t see it as ‘murder’ and it really is immaterial to me what the policeman’s religion was because religion means absolutely nothing to me.
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I had to look up Shaheed Bhagat Singh !
But yes I would have shared that view at that time I am sure.
I would emphasise the “at that time” bit.
Below are links for anyone interested in the two people you mention:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaheed_Bhagat_Singh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Hale
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BD,
“I had to look up Shaheed Bhagat Singh !”
I was just showing off! I’ll never call Nawanshahr by its new name, SBSNagar!
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So in your eyes, ceannaire, Lenny Murphy’s crowd were not murderers or a gang but soldiers taking their war to the enemy?
Two sets of despicable murdering scum, separated only by 30 years.
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Carrickally,
I see what you did there…… I imagine everyone else did too
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I hope so. There’s nothing quite like an attack on the romanticism of a legendary act of defiance.
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Interesting that the Belfast IRA were capable of having arms never mind shooting anyone in 1942.
Must have been a complete lockdown after the creation of the Orange State in the early 1920s.
The Free State wouldn’t have been any better for the IRA.
Dev hanged them all through the 40s.
A 19 year old from any legal army shooting a Belfast copper dead at any point during that time period would have faced the hangman.
So Carrickally is correct regarding the execution.
The Northern State wouldn’t have regarded TW as a POW.
Unlike the Nazis with the Free Polish Army in the Warsaw Up-rising.
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Oh dear. This looks like a very bad time to say that I was at Tom Williams funeral
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We’ve all met strange creatures in our younger years, FJH. I once shared a car with Enoch Powell on a trip from Londonderry back to Belfast. I don’t know which makes me a greater pariah; the rivers of blood man or the admission of a visit to (stop laughing at the back) Legenderry!
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Very Propagandist in nature, Bangordub, for you to say Williams was ‘murdered by the state’ but completely neglect to mention he was in fact hanged for his part in the murder of a policeman. And the fact that the policeman he murdered was a Falls Road Catholic and a father of nine further undermines republican propaganda.
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Here are some photos of more men and women, or “terrorists” if one prefers, many of whom were also involved in the “murder” of policemen during this same period in European history. Just for comparison.
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One mans “terrorist” is another mans freedom fighter. Long live the memory of Tom Williams and Kevin Barry to name but two of countless numbers. Perhaps someday those of the PUL tradition will be willing to countenance this fact.
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MPG, I was going to use that very same quote. Then I slapped myself at the cliched nature of such a response. Maybe one day the republican tradition will fully embrace that murder is murder is murder, as some old hag once proclaimed.
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This is a good discussion.
Carrickally, murder is murder agreed. the point of disagreement here is the definition.
Seamus nails above the point as usual.
Alphiedale. you may not get this from a republican perspective but the mans faith and family are not the point. He was an agent of the state. I know that may sound harsh but it is the perspective of the likes of Tom Williams. I could provide a list of innocents who were murdered by the agents of the same state as, I am sure could you, in reverse. I have family members included in that. They did not fight and die for the british empire in far flung lands for reasons they didn’t understand, they died in their own land for reasons they understood only too well
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Same old hag was very fond of murder. Of course when she did it was OK.
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Bangor dub you completely ignored the substance of my point. I tagged on the part about the police mans religion at the end as an interesting aside – I understand completely if a Catholic joins the police or army he is a target for the IRA, but to say a religious background wasn’t part of the whole thing for republicans is a joke, the IRA fed into a sectarian dynamic and murdered countless people mainly because they were Protestant and for little other reason
However, my main point which you did not answer- do you not think it is a tad ridiculous to say Williams was murdered by the state and then fail to give any reference at all as to why he was hanged and the fact it was the murder of a Policeman??? Propagandist? Ridiculous?Why did you not make any reference to the murder of Constable Patrick Murphy in your original post ?
As an aside, I wonder what became of Constable Murphy’s 9 children. I guess that if they are still living they would be approx. aged 70 – 80 years of age. Now they are the real victims, it would be interesting to hear from them.
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Alphiedale,
Apologies for late reply, only just saw your comment above.
My post was not intended as a factual detailed examination of the rights and wrongs regarding Tom Williams actions. I actually linked quickly to another source for that information (comment 3 above). It was a post intended as a reflection on my visit to the Jail.
As is usual on this blog the comments tend to take on a dynamic of their own and in general I like that. I disagree with you for the most part but I’ll not be shaping my blogs to reflect a Unionist viewpoint for the simple reason that I’m not a Unionist. Besides which there are commenters here that are more than capable of doing just that. Fair enough?
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I understand you are a republican and expect a republican slant Bangor Dub but imo the telling of any story loses credibility if it doesn’t refer to very important parts of the whole story.
If there isn’t a measure of balance in reflecting the facts the blog becomes so loaded as to fall into the realms of propaganda. I thought this was a stark example of that.
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carrickally – you are correct about meeting “strange creatures”. Though I would never define you as one. 😉
As most of the world recognises us as Irishmen, you would never be so strange to me. 🙂
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The British Unionist minority in Ireland expects and demands of the Nationalist majority that we recognise and respect “their” war dead. Yet when we seek the same in return we are told that “our” war dead are murderers and terrorists and not worthy of recognition or respect.
Sorry, but one cannot have the Poppy without the Lily.
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Ceannaire, You’ve never (knowingly) met me, so can’t comment on just how strange I am! I’ll ignore the last sentence though 😉
Seamas, which war dead are you talking about? Soldiers of the Great and Second World Wars? Soldiers from Ireland, and then both sides of the border, who fought in the British Army? Soldiers in NI, Falklands, Iraq and Afghanistan?
And your war dead. Does that include said soldiers of the Connaught Rangers, Dublin Fusiliers, Irish Guards and those who fought and died from the IFS in WW2?
Or are you talking about “heroes” such as Thomas Begley or Billy Reid?
BTW, I’m quite looking forward to my display of lilies; they’re on course thanks to the cooler weather to burst forth and last over the month of July.
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The war dead the British head of state lay a wreath for and bowed her to in the Garden of Remembrance in Dublin. The monument that commemorates all those “Fenian bombers” and “IRA gunmen”. Though it might be easy for some to forget that historic act of reconciliation between the nations of Ireland and Britain given that for some strange reason the British media suddenly came over all coy when reporting that particular gesture of recognition and respect.
British media squirms when faced with the uncomfortable true history of Ireland?
I’ll take it from your answer that my point stands. Only those commemorated by the Poppy are worth remembering.
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Culture?
http://www.u.tv/News/MLA-has-no-problem-burning-Tricolour/5852ffc7-f339-4fe5-a934-e38680ab5baf
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“Mr Girvan, who was involved in the “eleventh hour” discussions with the community over their concerns, said putting an Irish flag on top of a bonfire was “part of the culture”.”
I’m sure they said something similar about burning crosses. Sigh…
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Alasdair McDonnell refers to bigots at Westminster and sure enough one pops up right on cue
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Seamas, does the Garden of Remembrance include the IRA from beyond the 1920’s? Does the Irish State then recognise them as the successors of their successors for independence? That’s surely the role of the Free State Army and the Irish Army, is it not?
Likewise, I don’t give a flying whatsnot about dead UVF terrorists; they aren’t the successors of the 36th Ulster Division.
BD, statements like Girvan’s are ridiculous. As I’ve said before, RoI have been good neighbours in the last two decades and burning the flag of RoI is not on.
Perhaps we could have a joint statement from Dublin and Belfast, emphasising that the RoI flag is the representative piece of cloth (in Naomi Long’s words) for the 26 counties and should not be seen as belonging to terrorist groups in NI but rather to those people who believe themselves to be Irish in a republican and/or nationalist tradition.
For therein lies the issue; the bonfire builders view Dublin as a hostile capital and the locals who fly it as IRA supporters.
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So you recognise the legitimacy of all those Irish Resistance organisations commemorated by the Garden of Remembrance, from the 18th century Society of the United Irishmen to the early 20th century Irish Republican Army? If so then that is a start and I would in fairness not expect any more of you or any other Unionist in relation to the post-revolutionary period and the most recent struggle in particular.
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It’s a dangerous game, when it comes to recognising legitimacy but yes, I think we’re at the point when the founding fathers of the IFS are recognised as equally legitimately as the United Irishmen. Maybe in two generations or so, there will be a similar recognition of the founders of the new Northern Irish state. As you I’m sure already know, I’ve tried my best to analyse the reasons behind their campaign, even if I don’t agree with its major aims and methods.
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From the PSNI Facebook page…..
Officers in Craigavon whilst on routine patrol in the Garvaghy Road area of Portadown on Tuesday 25th June noticed several youths behaving suspiciously near the park at around 10.10pm. The youths who had been attempting to lift a wheelie bin into the grounds of the park made off on the arrival of police. The bin along with two others located nearby were found to contain a large number of paint bombs, bottles with rags in the necks, golf balls, tins of paint and various other items. The items were seized and taken away for further examination.
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Area Commander, Chief Inspector Anthony McNally said, “Firstly, I must praise our officers who have removed a large number of dangerous items from the streets of Portadown. However, whilst I welcome the removal of these items, I must also stress my concern that they were there to begin with. Police along with our partners in the local community have been working hard to ease tensions in the area, particularly in the run up to the busy summer months, though it would seem that some elements are determined to prepare for, and to cause trouble. I believe this to be a very small minority and call upon parents, community representatives or anyone with influence in the community to send a message to those intent on violence that it is not welcome on our streets, and hinders the positive image of Portadown the vast majority of us wish to see. I would ask anyone noticing any suspicious activity or with any information to contact police in Mahon Road on 0845 600 8000. Information can also be provided anonymously to Crimestoppers on 088 555 111.”
Now this is very worrying, albeit expected.
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Sounds like the usual weapons of attack on Corcrain Orange Hall.
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Let’s get one point clear.
At no point during WW1 or WW2 was any Irishman, north or south, Catholic or Protestant forced to take part.
I except the choice of taking up arms for any army or faction over the centuries might have been for a variety of reasons, poverty or protection being two of them.
But nobody was forced by the British state to take part.
The young men of England, Scotland and Wales had no such choice from 1916 regarding WW1 and 1939 right on through WW2.
Conscription ended in 1960.
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PT,
That is true, the question of conscription was a major political issue at the time although I am not sure what point you are making?
Incidently, during the 1st WW conflicting messages were given to Unionists and Nationalists regarding home rule by the British Govt to encourage enlistment.
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Having spoken to men who took part in WW1 and WW2, they had a jaundiced view of Belfast “Fleg” wavers who might have passed both events by doing overtime in a Belfast shipyard.
What exactly did Ian Paisley, born 1926, age 18 in 1944, do for the war effort.
Don’t remember any mention of our Ian fighting his way through France.
Ian Paisley, as an example, would have been the right age for the final months of WW2.
Maybe our resident unionists posters could tell us all the VCs won by Irishmen during the two world wars.
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The 2 VCs that spring automatically to mind come from the different wars but both from Belfast.
Firstly Seaman Magennis, commemorated in the grounds of City Hall. He was a mini-submariner, from West Belfast who survived the Second World War and then after a brief burst of publicity, faded into obscurity.
Secondly William McFadzean, commemorated as part of the Ballymacarrett Somme Anniversary Parade. The day before the battle, a crate of grenades fell on the floor of the trench, priming some of them. McFadzean threw himself on top of them, died instantly and saved those around him.
There are dozens of Irish (N&S) VC winners from the Crimea through to the last century. Unsure if there have been any in this century, must check up on that.
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VC Magennis is commemorated on a mural in Tullycarnet. He lived in Clonduff, couldn’t find steady work, went to England and died in Bradford I think in 1980’s.
Ally-Is that the McFadzean’s whiose family home was on the Cregagh Road – now used as a health centre?
There are quite a few I think from WW1.
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alfie, I’d forgotten about the mural on the way to the Ice Bowl. Pretty sure McFadzean came the Woodstock area so you could well be right. Again, I’m pretty sure there’s a banner in our District that has him on it, will keep an eye out on the First to check.
That leads me to an aside, that might be worth examining; the subject matter of Orange banners. There’s two sides to every story so, along with the high proportion of men on white horses, it would be interesting to list all the “other side” portraits and paintings.
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A VC winner that couldn’t find work in his home town.
I wonder why that was.
Maybe he wasn’t the right “sort”.
What about that shirt factory the Faulkner family ran.
No room for a VC winner in that factory.
Maybe only war dodgers and future PMs of NI could get a job in there.
Maybe under the mural the painter should have written
Catholic VC winners need not apply.
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Nonsense about VC winner Magennis, Political Tourist.
He did work, but jobs ran out, and had to go sometimes a week or two in between jobs, and was offered more steady work across the water. Same thing happens to me and I’ve also been across the water in the past for more steady work. Its not unusual at all.
He was hailed a hero by the people of Belfast who actually raised a lot of money for him as a thankyou. I understand VC Magennis and his wife spent the lot quite quickly, and he also sold his VC in later years. He was thrust into the limelight for very well earned reasons but didn’t know what to do with it.
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Why no Freedom of the City for Belfast’s WW2 VC winner?
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Yeah he certainly should have got that for sure from the city fathers that is a different (but valid) point, but you were talking nonsense about him not being able to find work and making all sorts of assumptions (and after a mere comment-in-passing from me too) – he was hailed a hero by the ordinary citizenry of Belfast and treated well by them, and I understand he and his family settled happily in Clonduff in East Belfast for several years before moving to England.
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The problem for anybody pushing the Super Red, White and Blue line from NI is that it doesn’t stand up to any serious scrutiny.
That big H&W shipyard which employed thousands of skilled workers in 1916 was full of who exactly.
Couldn’t have been the local East Belfast loyalists, sure they were all fighting at the Somme.
Doesn’t really add up.
And the Ian Paisley story.
So were was he in 1944/45.
Brian Faulkner, remember him, if those two guys wore a poppy it certainly wasn’t for fallen comrades.
To think Big Ian managed to get away with draft dodging all those years.
Talk about a conspiracy of silence by the British Press.
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http://www.thejournal.ie/united-ireland-971424-Jun2013/?utm_source=twitter_selfet voting
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Some of the local Falls Rd politicians from the time period of Tom Williams death seem interesting characters.
Richard Byrne, Irish Nationalist and slum landlord who Joe Devlin described as a Tory.
Eamon Donnolly, anti treaty Republican who held the Falls seat for about 5 minutes and died.
Jack Beattie, never quite sure he was a Labour man since he was against the Mother and Baby Act in the Free State.
Maybe more of a catholic than a labourite, not forgetting the whole red scare nonsense was in full swing by the late 40s.
Doubt Byrne or Beattie would have had much time for using a short of policemen.
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According to the Sunday World newspaper Jamie Bryson Donaghdee’s favourite loyalist son is related to the late Jim Bryson Ballymurphy’s onetime leading Provo.
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So let’s get this clear
Jamie the Fleg waving pup was born 1990
His dad is Davie Bryson
His grandfather is Walter Bryson
Great grandfather is James Bryson
James has a brother Albert who has a Provo grandson.
Bit distant tbh, although having the same surname does bring it more into focus.
Thing is, is Jim Bryson the Provo from planter stock?
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No PT, that’s Gerry Adams you’re thinking of…
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Albert pierrepoint should have bhagat singh and udham singh and Albert pierrepoint said these two Indians I have hanged best
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