Time for something new!
There is a prize of a pint going for the best caption for this photo taken today which, taken in the context of the Obama speech where it was snapped, speaks volumes:
My entry? Sammy says ” I Surrrennderrrrr”
Competition Time
17 Monday Jun 2013
Posted in Northern Politics
"We in coming days may be" 
Here’s a goodun:
http://twitpic.com/cxr4lm/full
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“Feck it, let’s go gay!”
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Sammy: Jesus Gerry, you’ve nearly gassed me!
Gerry: Ok Sammy, – Truth and Reconcilliation time – I’ll admit it was me, as long as we don’t have a Public Inquiry into it.
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Details of “border poll” announced in Belfast, 2019…
😉
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Séamus, any links or detail?
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That was my caption under the pic. That bad a joke? 😛
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lol, my mistake!
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Hands up if you are a cr@p poltcian
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“Sing up Sammy ‘My fourth green field will bloom once again said she!'”
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RJC, clear lead so far! I hope you’re near Bangor. 🙂
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I will be at the Sharon Shannon concert in Bangor on Saturday night where the prize of a pint will be presented with due ceremony. Results will be based on the Thumbs up or down criteria. Cracking entries so far!
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BD, will there be a post on the merits (or otherwise) of the G8?
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Carrickally, short answer is yes, but how? I am at a loss.
So far we have had a “communique” ahem.
4 tents in a Fermanagh field
A ginormous amount of overtime and expenses
NO photo as of yet of Putin in the lake or Obama in the Gym
Belfast and Enniskillen trade adversely affected to the tune of millions by disruption with no word on future, and I suspect there won’t be, benefits.
My immediate thought? WTF?
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One of the major issues has been mentioned by you; trade disruption. I had a chat with a couple of business owners on Monday afternoon – one Dublin Road restaurant, one Vic Square cafe – and both said that their trade had been decimated since Friday. Interestingly, the Vic Sq one laughed about the baristas being busy piece in the Irish News and pointed out that the cops were buying their coffees from the very place that don’t pay the Corporation Tax that helps pay their wages.
The second issue was the little nugget (no doubt inserted at the behest of OFMDFM) in Obama’s speech regarding educating children together, followed by the visit of him and Cameron to Enniskillen IPS. There’s going to be a real push for proper integration and the pressure will very much be on the Catholic trustees to give good reasons why there should be a separate sector for maintained schools rather than schools with an individual Catholic ethos.
On a global front, we’re hearing now about the Lough Erne Declaration. Will Sammy Wilson be donning green tights and riding south to liberate the Google millions from the Sheriff to share out amongst the Sherwood Foresters?
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Carrickally – integrated education is the way forward. It is incredibly difficult to explain this to nationalists north of the border.
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Factual – The way forward to what?
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Folks getting on better one side with t’other, up there.
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With the exception of periodic bouts of genocide, Irish people have always had the option to get on with their conquerors, as long as they tow the line, accept their losses and the status quo and relinquish their claims.
Occupation, subjugation, integration and then assimilation. Are we that near to the final phase of Colonial and Plantation process.
There’s a final settlement required before everyone will be happy to forget.
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paulG – this is about ordinary protestant and catholic neighbours. Time for all sides to put aside the rhetoric, let children go to school together.
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I’m in favour of ending segregation and religious influence in our schools.
Im also in favour of ending the ultimate segregation in Ireland – partition.
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‘Anyone for a little bit more subvention ?’
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Exactly, In my job I would be asking for a detailed cost/ benefit analysis.
In other words how much did this thing cost and has anybody a clue as to what the benefits may be?
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“with an arm in one hand”
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Caption…..Uncle Andy and Da are surprise VIP guests at Waterfront.
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as 240000 volts burst through the seating the floodlighting electrician suddenly realised he had the wiring diagram upside down
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and, you said, “I’m in favour of ending segregation and religious influence in our schools.
Im also in favour of ending the ultimate segregation in Ireland – partition.”
Perhaps this shows just how conservative and unwilling to think outside the box you actually are, to tie the two issues together as if it’s a case of, “we’ll do this if you do that”; young Prods would no longer fear a 1641 assault if only they knew young RCs didn’t think like that.
You’re playing the zero sum game. Integrate and watch the barriers of the mind come down much faster.
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Integrated education is desirable in and of itself in terms of bringing about a more integrated society, regardless of whether one wants a UI or to remain part of UK.
As someone who would prefer a UI I believe that a deeply divided society in NI makes it harder to get to a UI, because it makes it harder to persuade people of its merits both north and south of the border.
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Carrick,
I get that integrationist unionists and modern liberal unionists see that they can protect the union by treating the Catholic population as equal British citizens and thus gain their loyalty and hopefully assimilate them more quickly – and IE would fit in well with that.
I also get that more Traditional unionists see the best way to protect the union is to segregate themselves, ‘keep the blood and faith pure and never compomise’ etc. – a la The Orange Order.
Two very different strategies.
While your previous posts on the more positive sides of the Orange Order have been interesting and enlightening, I’m not sure I see how you accomodate Educational Integrationism with Orange Segregationism in one philosophy.
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PG, I don’t keep to a segregationist philosophy at all. As a matter of fact, as an Orangeman I’d happily walk all over the place (joke!). I’ve spoken about the need for Orangeism to reach out, to show respect, to listen, to discuss. That’s what integration should be all about when it comes to religion and culture.
When it comes to education, I very much believe in secular education.
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Hmmm,
Personally, I view all of us who share this patch of land as fellow countrymen, whatever label we want to plant on ourselves. I can assure you that everyone else will label us as Irishmen, or women, whatever we think. I can also assure you that the British in particular, will treat us as being Irish regardless. A lesson that has been hard learned over many years by many an immigrant, planter or planted
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Good one Carrick, I hope that in the not too distant future you will be able to march all the Presidents highways and by-ways in all of his 32 counties:)
With all due respect to Orangeism, reaching out, respecting, listnening and discussing all seem at complete odds to the way the OO has behaved. Is the Order trying to re-invent itself? Who will Orangemen integrate with, the AOH?
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Theres no conspiracy to murder Protestants Carrick. I’ve no desire to see young prods sent packing to Britain or treat you in any way that I wouldn’t wish for myself. I don’t understand how you can come to that conclusion. You need to move on from 1641 and ditch your settler mindset and integrate yourselves with the rest of Irish society.
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Of course there’s not, and. I didn’t come to the conclusion, that’s the general folk-memory position that is prevalent in PUL circles. It mightn’t be articulated as such (more likely, “They want to knock yer balix in”) but the fear of the Gael is still there.
As a planter, I don’t consider myself to be part of Irish society so it would be difficult to integrate myself with it.
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Do you really use that term “planter” about yourselves? It seems odd, 5 centuries on!
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Carrickally, would you have any idea of the percentage of Protestants that are devoutly religious and believers in creationism? Would this strengthening tendency within Protestantism be predominant in rural or urban communities?
I ask this because I’d speculating that in a very short timespan that young liberal Protestants residing west of the Bann will find themselves gravitating more to the equally enlightened, party-loving almost hedonistic and generally good fun young Catholics. So I’m supporting Factual on this, Irishness has nothing to fear from IE. Like is Derry City any less Irish than South Armagh because of its love affair with soccer?
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mekonged, I’ve no idea on the percentage of creationists. I would say that they would correlate closely with the number of Free Ps and other minor sects because I don’t know a single Pres, Meth or CoI who is so inclined. However, it rarely comes up in conversation so again, I wouldn’t know. I’d have my doubts over a lot of Primary School teachers. Those I know always strike me as covert fundies, wanting kids to join clubs and teaching RE at every given opportunity!
It’s hard to judge devoutly religious Protestantism. I suppose church attendance should be one of the key indicators but that ignores groups that have prayer meetings in their houses. There’s a shifty looking bunch that do it a few doors down for us and, knowing one of the girls who attends (incidentally, a teacher!), I would say it would be pretty intense stuff.
You’d be lucky to find any young liberals west of the Bann – they all strike me as strange, six-toed creatures who breed problems when they’re let within the city limits. I’m all in favour of setting up holding camps at Glengormley and Blaris to keep them out or at least quarantine them!
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It seems that in 10 to 15 years time, there may be a very small window of opportunity, probably only lasting a few years, when Nationalists will have a slim majority and be able to make, what will be their best possible deal (possibly even a UI). After that, factors such as immigration, converging birth rates and the growing centre of apolitical, consumerist, me feiners, will form an insurmountable block to any change.
It could all come down to a couple of thousand votes in 1 election.
After 800 years of struggle, the last chance shouldn’t be lost to poor timing.
God grant us IE – just not yet!
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Hedonism not consumerism. But didn’t that joie de vive engage the Normans to become more Gaelic than the freckled indigenous? That’s the propaganda line I was brought up on and it was the bloody Catholic Church destroyed our ancient embrace of the pleasures on the dark side.
Not going to link to it but there was a very interesting thread on PIE about how Christainity destroyed the knowledge and rational based hegemony in Europe and how if it wasn’t for J C we’d already have conquered the Universe. Archimedes Computer or something, oh here’s the link http://www.politics.ie/forum/history/188231-bbc-documentary-9pm-10th-may-antikythera-mechanism-ancient-greek-computer.html A long thread but the last 7-8 pages are very interesting. It answers the question “what did the Romans ever do for us?”
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factual, when I’m hanging with my homeboys, we call each other planter. When you all do it, you disrespect my people. 😛
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“Personally, I view all of us who share this patch of land as fellow countrymen, whatever label we want to plant on ourselves.”
I like what you did there! Of course, in this era of modernism, we can apply whatever label, or none, to ourselves. I’m a gay Orangeman. That mightn’t be true, but I have every right to say I am. As a matter of fact, let’s spread it around; it’ll make some of the dinosaurs rightly uncomfortable.
“I can assure you that everyone else will label us as Irishmen, or women, whatever we think. I can also assure you that the British in particular, will treat us as being Irish regardless. A lesson that has been hard learned over many years by many an immigrant, planter or planted.”
Funnily enough, when I’m in Canada I’m often mistaken for Scottish. It must be my rather pathetic attempt to talk like a Torontarian in an effort to make myself understood. I must sound like Mike Myers’ Fat Bastard from Austin Powers!
When I’m in India, I’m labelled as Ingreze. It’s only on the mainland that I’m called Irish, although even that is decreasing. Thanks to Mr Healy for that one from 2005 onwards (and upwards, for a while, then back to below mediocre!).
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PG,
“Good one Carrick, I hope that in the not too distant future you will be able to march all the Presidents highways and by-ways in all of his 32 counties:)”
I would be grateful if Monaghan and Cavan could re-establish their parades, last held in the 1930’s, IIRC. I didn’t know that more of the RoI counties were going to be subdivided, will we see a West Dublin, a couple of Corks and a return to the North and South Ridings?
“With all due respect to Orangeism, reaching out, respecting, listnening and discussing all seem at complete odds to the way the OO has behaved. Is the Order trying to re-invent itself? Who will Orangemen integrate with, the AOH?”
In your opinion, how has the OO behaved recently? By integrate, I mean sit with, learn with, develop with. That’s what schools should be all about, and therefore where a learning society should be. It’s only right that a major part of our society starts to feel comfortable about leading change.
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What is there to learn from the Orange Order? We already know you celebrate the conquest and partition of Ireland mixed in with Protestant superiority over Catholics and banners for Cromwell and the like. The Orange Order have thousand of parades each year and the fact only a fraction of them are disputed speaks volumes for the tolerance shown by Catholics to an organisation they despise. You must be mad if you think we will allow our children to be educated by some orange grandmaster.
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and, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and, due to the time, presume you were on a bender.
“What is there to learn from the Orange Order?”
At the most basic level, know your enemy (for that’s obviously what you believe I am). Learn what makes a fraternal organisation with around 30k members and then families beyond that tick. Learn what they do in NI, RoI, Scotland, England, Canada, Australia, NZ, Togo, Ghana. Learn about the history, warts and all (see below), to include such members as Dr Barnardo, Thomas Andrews, John A. McDonald or William Massey.
“We already know you celebrate the conquest and partition of Ireland mixed in with Protestant superiority over Catholics and banners for Cromwell and the like.”
Yes, every morning I pray to my ruthless Protestant God for the abilities of my forefathers in subjugating the wild savages of Ireland. Or maybe I celebrate the deliverance of the kingdoms of England, Scotland and Ireland from tyranny and arbitrary power – unfortunately the Anglican overlords fecked it up in the latter. You told me to move on from 1641 and yet you mention Cromwell? Obviously the Irish see him in a much different light from the British, Drogheda no doubt strong in your mind when he slaughtered the English and Irish in the garrison and managed to kill some civilians inside. He was happy to let the rumours run wild, pour encourager les autres. A man happy enough to use his warts and all image to force an easier surrender out of other towns (bar Wexford and Waterford).
“The Orange Order have thousand of parades each year”
No they don’t. At tops, one thousand.
“and the fact only a fraction of them are disputed speaks volumes for the tolerance shown by Catholics to an organisation they despise.”
It’s clear that you despise the OO. I would say that the vast majority of people in NI either care for, do not care for or tolerate the OO. As long as we continue to improve on what we do, I’d say the “despise” group will shrink.
“You must be mad if you think we will allow our children to be educated by some orange grandmaster.”
So you wouldn’t have me teach in a secular setting in a school? Is Orange maths different to Catholic maths? I think you’ll also need to protest outside some of the Catholic schools who have accepted the invitation of the Education Committee to visit Schomberg House or who have accepted Orange feet in their classrooms and lecture theatres.
Now if, instead of trying to speak for “your people,” you want to keep your own individual children out of that, that’s your perogative. Parental choice is a great thing and a right.
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Carrickally,
A fraternal organisation? really?
One that I cannot join even should I wish to and dedicated to active discrimination against fellow citizens?
For the avoidance of doubt here is the oath (I am open to correction if it has changed in recent times):
‘I, A.B., do so solemnly and voluntarily declare, that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty the King; and that I will to the utmost of my power support and maintain the laws and constitution of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, as established by William the Third of glorious memory, and the succession to the throne in his Majesty’s illustrious House, being Protestant.
‘I do declare that I am not, nor ever was, a Roman-Catholic or Papist; that I was not, am not, or ever will be, a member of the society called “United Irishmen” , nor any other society or body of men, who are enemies to his Majesty, or the glorious constitution of these realms; and that I never took the oath to that or any other treasonable society.
‘I declare that I will, as far as in my power lies; assist the magistrates and civil authorities of these kingdoms in the lawful execution of their official duties, when called upon. That I will be true and faithful to every brother Orangeman in all just actions; that I will not wrong, or know him to be wronged or injured, without giving due notice thereof, if in my power. And I solemnly declare that I will always conceal, and never will reveal either part or parts of what is now to privately communicated to me, unless to a brother Orangeman, knowing him to be so by strict trial and due examination; or from the word of a brother Orangeman, or until I shall be authorized so to do by the proper authorities of the Orange Institution. That I will not write it, indite it, cut carve, stain, stamp, or engrave it, or cause it to be done, lest any part thereof might be known. And lastly, I do declare that I have not, to my knowledge or belief, been proposed or rejected in, or expelled from any other Orange Lodge.
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Carrick,
“So you wouldn’t have me teach in a secular setting in a school? Is Orange maths different to Catholic maths?”
In Orange maths 6 into 26 won’t go. In everyone else’s maths the answer is 4 and one third;)
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Its not just the Orange Order Carrick its the Loyalist band scene that comes with it and the crowds who follow them. If they were to disassociate themselves from bands like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHqJFnHXrYY and take into consideration the views of residents who live where they march this would go a long way to defusing tensions.
You don’t want us marching here fine what can we do to change your view. This should be the attitude of an organisation which claims to be peaceful and Christian. Show respect and you’ll earn it.
I know a family who had a love one murdered by Loyalists and the circumstances of his death were quite brutal. The following summer they had to put up with the killers taunts and cheers as the Orange Order walked past their home. They moved soon after yet the killers and Orange Order still march the same road.
My grandfather served with the British army in WW2 and was intimidated out of his home along my mother and the rest of his family after an orange parade had passed. The fear you speak of goes both ways be it real or imaginary. For all the good that may exist within the order its hard to see the positives in this light. Perhaps you can understand why I would use the word despise.
Ive no problem with my children being educated with thos4 of different faith or educated by people of different faiths or god forbid the Oranger Order coming for some Q&A. I’d like to see it happen. I’d rather they learn computer science than waste time on RE. I went to a Catholic school yet have no idea what ‘Cathoilic ethos is supposed to represent. Our religion teacher would take us on trips and spend time discussing everything under the sun than study religion. We went to Carrickfergus one afternoon to visit the castle. It was closed but we did get to see the crabs who live there 🙂 Hows that for indoctrination.
From my point of view sending my kids to a religious school is contradictory to my own beliefs. I want to see the separation of church and state and ending the power churches hold in Ireland.
However I believe it to be the lesser evil and didn’t much options. Most importantly I know their Irish identity will be respected and not challenged or belittled which British rule has never been shy of. Ulster is British? I don’t think so.
Catholicism has no relevance in my day to day life or that of virtually everyone I know who would call themselves Catholic.
I make as difference though when it comes to those who are members of an organisation that makes a point of barring Catholics or anyone who would marry a Catholic. You have to be pretty extreme to take your faith as far as cutting yourself of from near half the population.
Where does love thy neighbour fit in with this outlook. As others have pointed out its not compatible with integration.
I take your point about harking back to Cromwell although the Orange Order do commemorate him which makes it relevant and hes probably the most notorious and divisive figure in Irish history.
Im away to cheer on the Irish & British lions. They represent the type of relationship that can exist between these islands when its done on the basis of consent and respect.
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Where do I sign ?
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Of course what the Orange Order Really need to address is the perception that they exist only to annoy their neighbours. A perception that is merely reinforced with every passing marching season
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pG, very good! I suppose in English, reaffirming the negative would also be a hallmark of Orange education; “No, no, NEVER!”
BD, you’re a bit off in the oath; the modern version bears no mention of the United Irishmen so I’d presume that was the one for the period up to circa 1825 when there had to be an adjustment made to keep it “legal” in the UK.
This is the current:
“An Orangeman should have a sincere love and veneration for his Heavenly Father, a humble and steadfast faith in Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, believing in Him as the only Mediator between God and man. He should cultivate truth and justice, brotherly kindness and charity, devotion and piety, concord and unity, and obedience to the laws; his deportment should be gentle and compassionate, kind and courteous; he should seek the society of the virtuous, and avoid that of the evil; he should honour and diligently study the Holy Scriptures, and make them the rule of his faith and practice; he should love, uphold, and defend the Protestant religion, and sincerely desire and endeavour to propagate its doctrines and precepts; he should strenuously oppose the fatal errors and doctrines of the Church of Rome and other Non-Reformed faiths, and scrupulously avoid countenancing (by his presence or otherwise) any act or ceremony of Roman Catholic or other non-Reformed Worship; he should, by all lawful means, resist the ascendancy, encroachments, and the extension of their power, ever abstaining from all uncharitable words, actions, or sentiments towards all those who do not practice the Reformed and Christian Faith; he should remember to keep holy the Sabbath Day, and attend the public worship of God, and diligently train up his offspring, and all under his control, in the fear of God, and in the Protestant faith; he should never take the name of God in vain, but abstain from all cursing and profane language, and use every opportunity of discouraging those, and all other sinful practices, in others; his conduct should be guided by wisdom and prudence, and marked by honesty, temperance, and sobriety, the glory of God and the welfare of man, the honour of his Sovereign, and the good of his country, should be the motives of his actions.”
I’m not going to sugarcoat it, you have to be a Protestant to be “in da club.” To paraphrase one of the Marx brothers (not Karl), “I wouldn’t want to join a club that had me as a member!” I’m not sure what you mean about active discrimination, this isn’t the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools you’re getting confused with, is it?
As each marching season goes by, I think that the OO actually address the perception that they are annoying their neighbours. There was the decision in 2000 for Ballynafeigh to take the “moral high ground” and not walk up to the Ormeau Bridge – and they haven’t for every year since then, there’s the Dungiven lodge who parade to church without banner or music, there was the acceptance to bus back past Ardoyne shops last year and there is the strategy for St Patrick’s chapel this year.
Instead, as factual mentions, we get extra groups popping up (another one at Carrick Hill, another one in Dungiven) who put in notifications to protest and objections in an effort to either remove completely (the Dungiven one) or extremely curtail Orange feet. Now if that’s not a perception of vindictiveness that needs to be addressed, I’m not sure I know what is?
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“Thanks to Carrickally for providing the updated version of the Orange Oath.
While acknowledging all the praiseworthy aims of Christian virtues one phrase stood out for me
” he should, by all lawful means, resist the ascendancy, encroachments, and the extension of their (RC) power”,
The CNR sector now comprises close to 50 of the population in NI.
Are we to understand sworn Orangemen will oppose the resist “the ascendancy, encroachments, and the extension of the power” of democratic will of half of the population in NI?
Are we still believe they are not bigoted?
How do Orangemen justify their oath and reconcile their principles of civil liberties etc?
Is this even legal, given the UN Declaration of Human Rights (1948) and the more recent EU Charter?
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Carrick
As ever it is good to get your point of view. We in Dublin do not hear enough from the other (unionist) side north of the border – there are far too few Unionist voices on RTÉ.
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Trust me, there are plenty of pro-unionist voices on RTE. The people in the Free State hear the unionist ‘voice’ everyday on RTE they just dont realise they are hearing it.
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Please do not call it the Free State – that is derogatory.
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We in Dublin would prefer Ireland, or “the South” (if you are in the North), and I think “the 26 counties” is also okay. But the Free State is an outmoded usage, IMHO.
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factual, RTE always used to be on in my house when I was growing up (although there was a minute at 6pm when, for some reason, the signal got scrambled and my da had to turn to another station!) and I thought that there was plenty of scope for unionists to make valid views heard on news and current affairs programmes – and I’m talking late 80’s and early 90’s.
On a side issue, I would quite often hear it referred to as the Free State but not in a derogatory sense; just as another way of saying RoI, Ireland, the South etc. I’ll have to make a conscious effort not to use it, thanks.
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Carrickally
Just a quick question: what is the official OO position on talking to residents groups? On the one hand it seems only courteous to talk to residents and allay concerns. That said, on the other, there was a radio discussion this morning in which one of the commentators pointed out that resident groups can pop up suddenly, perhaps there can be several and some with questionable real input from residents. How do you think the OO should approach this question?
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factual
“How do you think the OO should approach this question?”
Talking and listening. It costs nothing, it’s good manners and, although I believe in it for the honest reason of increasing interaction and education, if the “other side” are being facetious, that will be uncovered.
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They may be perceived to pop up suddenly factual but the resentment has always been there as seen at Carrick Hill. In the past people had to accept things and had no outlet to express these frustrations and when they did the powers that be would always side with the marchers and at the same time make those who did object targets for Loyalists. There was never a proper balance. Re-routing them will always be seen as a defeat for those who participate as seen at Drumcree. Yet it dosn’t have to be that way.
Unionists tend to believe that Sinn Fein have carefully exploited the issue yet ignore the fact they are only expressing the wishes of the people they represent and those affected directly by these parades.
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Good points. Getting the feeling that real progress is being made on parades somehow – because we are getting to the point where leaders on the two sides are willing to listen to each other’s points and concerns.
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As far as Im aware the Orange Order still refuse to meet and talk with Sinn Fein face to face. Like that PA Mike Nesbitt they still want sackcloths and ashes. I wouldn’t call it progress.
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What is amazing – and you can see it in the Gerry Kelly video today – is how hot under the collar people seem to get about the whole issue. There are people being interviewed who are so angry and who want to get their passionate views across.
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Have the Belfast lodges added the Alliance Party to the United Irishmen on the Oath’s pariah list?
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Alliance have been on the list since the Anglo-Irish Agreement. Three years after we put Maradona and Ossie Ardilles on it! Adolf has received a pass since 1989; we’re often slow at adapting to the times and didn’t realise he was dead.
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Engouraging that the Tour of the North Parade has went off peacefully in North Belfast; Gerry Kelly probably deserves credit in his efforts to calm the situation as tweeted by SInn Féin.
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Though unfortunately Gerry Kelly got attached to a police van, in his efforts to calm things, and Caral got injured when coming to his rescue.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23008892
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Oh dear. Not very good to have a Policing Board member attached like a red nose to the front of a landrover. I wonder was the PSNI driver exhausted after all the G8 overtime?
Hope Caral is ok, she still needs to have the Glens up to Stormont with the Irish Cup!
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The Irish Cup will get lost inside her barnet if she holds it above her head. It’ll kill her to have the triumphant and victorious Glens up to Stormont after we duffed her beloved Cliftonville!
Looks to me like Gerry Kelly obstructed the police in the course of their duty.
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Carrick,
“I’ve spoken about the need for Orangeism to reach out, to show respect, to listen, to discuss.”
All of the above are conspicuously lacking from the Orange Order’s engagement or lack of, with residents groups on contentious parade routes.
“That’s what integration should be all about when it comes to religion and culture.”
Why would a faithfull Orangeman bother with educating his kids with Catholic kids, when even before schools out, he’d have his sons in the reserve militia, marching down their schoolmates street, maybe a sword in in hand, maybe banging a drum, maybe watching their uncle urinating on a church, reminding them who won and who lost the war and who’s in charge and who’d better not get too cocky, and then have to send them back to the schoolyard to deal with the uncle’s backlash. That’s just not fair on the young lads. Are you sure you’re in the right organisation?
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pG, Your statement about a conspicuous lack of engagement doesn’t really ring true in areas such as Crumlin. I also wouldn’t be surprised if the City of Culture (I really try not to lol every time I type that) flagship parade has involved similar discussions to the ones that ABOD are always involved with.
I had my kids embracing two aspects of their culture today. Maw and paw took them to Carrick today while I was at work for Armed Forces Day where they got to see their uncle on parade in uniform. Irish Guards were there, some of you may have seen the Red Arrows too? Big son was impressed with the RAF, wee son with the band, only stopped drumming when he went to bed. Then into Belfast for the start of India Week. I got a redition of Desi Girl from them both, which on so many levels has scared me for life!
So you were actually quite close with the (hopefully) tongue in cheek summary!
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Carrickally
Are you hopeful of a positive parading season this year?
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I’m hopeful every year but it really is down to individuals behaving themselves so can all go pear-shaped very quickly – a bit like a work do!
On our front, we’re all sorted for taxi, meal and band on the return leg (the credit crunch means a small lodge like us has to cut something off the budget), our 11/1 has been handed in and all our loose ends were tied up in lodge last week. I’m bringing the pillowcases, Uncle Andy is left in charge of the scissors and Red Hand Luke is supposed to bring the matches for the crosses that the rest of the members of the Kneebreakers will be planting in the lawns of the obvious middle-class Kafliks and unicorn liberals along Balmoral Ave.
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Carrickally,
“but it really is down to individuals behaving themselves so can all go pear-shaped very quickly – a bit like a work do!”
Here I must take issue. This is precisely why leadership is required. It is the silence and therefore implied complicity of the leadership of the OO that implicates them in the actions of those “individuals”.
It sure as hell is not a work do.
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It is what it is and as an Irish citizen in ‘the north'[ or the occupied six if you prefer?] I am entitled to call a part of my country the ‘Free state’. If I were a free-stater I would also feel stung when the Free state is mentioned as it would be a constant reminder of my/states failure to my fellow countryman.
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Just a matter of courtesy, WT. We in Dublin do not like that name, and it is inaccurate actually as it refers to a historical period, long ago.
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Factual,
Just as a matter of fact, I as a Dubliner understand exactly why that term is used. I have no objections whatsoever to my fellow countrymen, of whatever political opinion, using a term that emphasises their undemocratic exclusion from the 26 county state.
I also suggest you have a good look at this: http://ansionnachfionn.com/2013/06/22/the-terror-season/
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I find that blog full of ideology and rhetoric – narrow, not palatable, or my cup of tea. Your excellent blog is far more attractive place, with its stimulating and open minded approach.
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By the way, would you agree that “Free State” is not commonly used South of the border. It may be that there is a different dynamic down here – more forward looking.
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“would you agree that “Free State” is not commonly used South of the border. It may be that there is a different dynamic down here – more forward looking.”
OK, Imagine for a minute that an election was held tomorrow in the 26 counties.
Imagine that a Fianna Fail government was elected.
However, Dun Laoghaire as a constituency had a large, say Fine Gael vote and decided to secceed from the Republic under threat of armed resistance.
Imagine you were a Fianna Failer living in Dalkey (I know, but stick with me).
Imagine the Fine Gaeler’s made up a flag and denied you any expression of Irishness and then proceeded to ram the fact down your throat at every opportunity. Imagine if they denied you votes and a living as well.
Now imagine if the rest of the country, abandoned you and your Irishness and then proceeded to lecture you on what you should think, feel, say and tell you how to behave yourself.
How would you feel?
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Bangordub people in Dublin do not generally appreciate the term Free State let me just leave it at that. There is a different dynamic down here, perhaps it is considered normal to use that term in NI, but the term is generally considered outmoded in Dublin and to be honest it does not go down well I would argue.
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BD,
I had and elderly Protestant relative, who always referrred to Dunleary as Kingstown. I don’t think it was through any desire to want it back, that was just it’s name the last time she was there!
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Paul I guess we can forgive elderly people who use the term Free State. Its interesting how the term seems to have such staying power.
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Thank you Factual.
Once again I AM a Dubliner and haven’t moved to Mars. I was even in Dublin as recently as, eh let me think, last Friday. I would consider the part of Dublin I am from has more in common with the Bangor Fleadh than Dalkey actually to be honest.
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Fair enough bangordub I am sure you have your finger on the pulse but do you really hear people in Dublin using the term Free State?
As for WT he can call it free state if that’s how he prefers, I will have to accept it.
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Factual,
Answer is no, Dubliners don’t use the term but Northerners DO! That’s the whole point. I’m trying to explain why they do and why I understand that. You are commenting about understanding a point of view different to your own between nationalists and unionists in the North yet you are not getting the opinions of northern nationalists regarding their abandonment by the southern state. That is my point.
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The term Free State hardly ever gets used and is dying out. Is it a more dogmatic harderline Republican term these days? All the Catholics I know never use it.
The only times I have heard it is from elderly people, and they do not mean it in a derogatory sense, just in the same way as I might say ‘down south’. Even then I never hear it.
At my mixed work place a workmate used the term to impersonate his elderly relative and we all had a good chuckle – that’s about where the term sits for most these days.
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BD
“I also suggest you have a good look at this: http://ansionnachfionn.com/2013/06/22/the-terror-season/”
In my opinion, this is the difference between your blog and some of the others.
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Carrickally,
Thanks 🙂 , serious point though, and without getting into the rights and wrongs of that particular video, some points have been raised above regarding the issue of talks. My understanding is the OO now permit talks to take place on the part of local lodges with residents. A policy that worked very well in Crumlin last year. I, and I suspect, most reasonable people wonder why this is not happening to a greater degree?
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Fair enough but if they are local lodges and local residents, is that not the perfect solution? To have GOLI talk to the overarching residents’ group body would put SF into a potentially awkward situation with their partners in government. It therefore suits that if there is a degree of goodwill on both sides, as there appears to be in Crumlin, then the “on the ground” solution is the best.
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No problem agreeing with that, just think. No need for a Parades Commission, imagine that……
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Generally encouraging developments. Hoping for a better outcome this year. The whole key is that if the people talk to each other they will start to understand where the other side is coming from and then a solution is so much easier to achieve than by megaphone diplomacy.
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No PC would be a perfect world. Around the same time, there’ll be no need for referees in football. They are a necessary evil at present because they save the PSNI from having to take a decision – and they need the backing of every part of the community far more than the PC, who know they are cast as the bogeymen – that could damage their cross-community support.
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How about a PC that is appointed by the FM/DFM?
It seems desirable that the PC should not comprise politicians, should be at arms length. It’s too difficult to do impartially for someone seeking election.
Also I think there should be more talking and discussion involving all interested parties – the local business community, the residents, the paraders, etc; so that everyone can start to see each others points of view and then that means its more likely that something that is “generally best” can come out.
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I am repositioning Benmadigans post here as I think it raises important questions:
(BD)
“Thanks to Carrickally for providing the updated version of the Orange Oath.
While acknowledging all the praiseworthy aims of Christian virtues one phrase stood out for me
” he should, by all lawful means, resist the ascendancy, encroachments, and the extension of their (RC) power”,
The CNR sector now comprises close to 50 of the population in NI.
Are we to understand sworn Orangemen will oppose the resist “the ascendancy, encroachments, and the extension of the power” of democratic will of half of the population in NI?
Are we still believe they are not bigoted?
How do Orangemen justify their oath and reconcile their principles of civil liberties etc?
Is this even legal, given the UN Declaration of Human Rights (1948) and the more recent EU Charter?
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Thanks for popping that down to the bottom, BD.
The Universal Declaration of Human rights concerns the individual, benmadigan. Therefore there is no legal grounding on attacking an association. In actual fact, the only mention of associations is that none shall be compelled to join one. As with the UDHR, the EU Charter is similarly founded on individual freedoms, rights and responsibilities set against the state. Again, there would be no legal grounding in challenging the rules and bye-laws of a non-government institution.
The ascendancy and encroachment is of the power of the Roman Catholic Church, not individual Roman Catholics or, for that matter, groups of Roman Catholics such as those who make up the majority of certain political parties (although obviously it is in the best interests of unionists to resist these parties’ fundamental aims of a united Ireland).
The justification of the oath and the principles of civil liberty are actually very easy to reconcile. Without the stand that was taken during the Glorious Revolution and the Bill of Rights/Claim of Right at the foundation of the modern British state, there would be no precedent for documents such as the UDHR and the EU Charter or the UNDRC.
Some phrases contained in them hark back to the civil and religious liberties that William of Orange stated, “Je Maintaindrai”; this I will maintain. These include, no interference in trials, ability to stand in elections, no impeachment in parliament, freedoms of speech and petition, no torture.
It’s entirely up to you benmadigan if you believe we are bigoted. I can only give my viewpoints to either try to change perceptions on a small level or within the OO to use my position to ensure that what is (in my conscience) right is the direction that is travelled.
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While I don’t agree that any organisation should be legally obliged to allow it’s stated opponents to join it’s membership, is it not the case that the BNP in England are legally prohibited from discriminating when it comes to it’s membership?
How have the Orange Order managed to preserve their discrimiantory ban on Catholics?
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Is the BNP not a political party? The OO isn’t, the RC Church isn’t. You don’t see too many RC’s in one, Prods in the other or men in the WI, for that matter.
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In fairness Carrickally, was the Northern State not effectively run by the OO for it’s first 50 years?
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Carrick,
It may not be a political party but it is certainly a political organisation.
“he should, by all lawful means, resist the ascendancy, encroachments, and the extension of their power, ”
Just because the groups which are favoured and opposed, are Religious groups doesn’t make the OO a purely religious organisation. It is the foray into the realms of ‘Power’ which make it a political organisation.
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BD, not effectively enough! We let the occasional minister into post without him being a member, and the odd employer let in a mick or two.
And that whole idea of letting in the NHS, allowing the expansion of university provision and funding maintained schools really bit us on the arse.
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lol, couldn’t agree more
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If these catholic schools’ would actually teach Irish history without fear of of of being targeted by willy fraser and now ross then you would maybe find a lot more people using the term, ‘the free state’.
I have no time for religion, and the ambition of integrated education sounds good but so does world peace and the end to poverty. In reality the catholic education system is being attacked for political reasons by the planter stock in an attempt to stifle Irishness and therefore engineer the result in any future referenda on Irish unification. Its the hearts and minds they are after. If the planter stock’ up north and in the free state[they are even in dublin!] can successfully browbeat,bribe,bully or indeed guilt-trip Irish people to an extent that even the schools’ are afraid to teach their own history, then their job becomes a lot easier ie no unification.
Nobody should be ‘afraid to speak of ’98’ or 1916,1969 or ’81. In these ‘integrated’ schools i suspect that Irish history would be ignored in case it offends and the world wars’ history etc would be taught instead, which no matter what spin anyone puts on it, would be british army/british history taught under the pseudonym of ‘world history’.
The truth is the planter stock know it is highly unlikely integration will ever take off but that isnt what they really want. If they can water down what little of Irish history that is already taught in catholic run schools, then its job done.
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Spot on Wolfe Tone
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WT, “If these catholic schools’ would actually teach Irish history without fear of of of being targeted by willy fraser and now ross then you would maybe find a lot more people using the term, ‘the free state’.”
Who’s Ross? I’ve missed a post out or something?
On the rest of your post, I feel that the modules on GCSE and A Level history don’t focus enough on Irish history. Mind you, that doesn’t mean that areas such as the rise of Fascism and Communism should be ignored, or the French Revolution. Funnily enough, none of those were taught from a British perspective when I did them. The Spanish Civil War bored the nuts off me, though. Falanges everywhere!
I want the removal of religion from schools; secularisation is my ultimate goal in schools, where those who want a religious element either get it at Sunday school or pay for their religious education in its totality.
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