Hi all,
I haven’t stopped blogging on the stats. They are my major area of interest and, due to the establishment of the northern six county statelet being founded upon that basis those stats will continue to be my focus until they are irrelevant. Hopefully soon! I recently read Mrs Bangordub’s A level history papers from a considerable time ago. They got me thinking.
I thought it may be interesting in the meantime to blog on a recurring theme which is, the unerring ability of Unionists to shoot themselves in the foot on the PR front, time and time again.
There are many examples of this throughout the short history of the North since partition. I believe this is best examined from three perspectives:
1. The Internal View.
Nationalists in Northern Ireland reacted to partition not with violence but primarily by keeping their heads down and their powder dry. Despite the sectarian rhetoric of those like Craigavon and Brookborough they stuck to basic principles such as equality and fairness. It got them absolutely nowhere. The Border campaign of the 1950’s was a southern initiative which achieved little other than a few martyrs. The behaviour, words and actions of southern politicians was frankly disgraceful. It reinforced the sense of abandonment and alienation felt by many north of the border. When those same issues came to a boil in the 1960’s it led to the civil rights movement and consequently the series of events that led to the GFA.
Unionism, on the other hand, resisted any change whatsoever. When presented with the opportunity to extend a hand of partnership by Terence O’Neill, rejected it. Unionists chose the uncompromising road exemplified by the Ian Paisley of those days. It chose the rhetoric of “no surrender” and “not an inch”. It ended up losing many miles both in PR terms and in actual political power terms. Stormont, the “Protestant parliament for a protestant people was prorogued” That was the end of days but nobody told them. They still fly the flag of the old stormont parliament believing it to be a flag of Ulster. Nobody has told them the truth yet.
The External view.
Simple this in my view. Whatever side of the fence you are on you are viewed as Irish by others if you are north of the , eh, border. Ironic in a way as I am always intrigued by the comments by those of a unionist persuasion that various things are “Irish”. The thought occurs to me as to how the “british” in Ireland view themselves. The English certainly them as Irish regardless. Personally I believe everyone has a right to view their own nationality in their own terms but, for me, it must be difficult to be viewed in seperate terms by those whom you most wish to be accepted by. The relevant term, I believe, is called cognative dissonance. Hence the bowler hats and pin striped suits so beloved of certain unionists. Hence the recent opportunistic alliances with extreme right wing British political parties.
The Southern View.
I have mentioned this above but I will say it again. We “Free Staters” have a lot to answer for. My Dad was from Armagh. My Mum was from Tipperary. They disagreed on many things but they agreed on one. Post 1921 there was a disconnect with the Nationalist people in the northern six counties. That was an abandonment of a democratic vote and a capitulation to the threat of force, specifically by the UVF. That same UVF had a commemoration this weekend in Belfast. An opportunity missed, yet again, for loyalists to engage and make themselves relevant. They banned and expelled journalists from covering the events. Southerners see Holy Cross, they see the triumphalist marches, they see the coat trailing and they see the bigotry. If you really want southerners to have nothing to do with you as unionists, it is working. It is also having the same effect on the rest of the world including decent British people.
So. In my view the way forward is simple. I, as a republican, would love to see the British Unionist minority in the north join me for a pint and a chat about the way forward. Is that a mad request?
Séamas Ó Sionnaigh (An Sionnach Fionn) said:
I certainly agree that after partition the government of Ireland effectively abandoned the north-eastern portion of its citizenry while that citizenry continued to look to it for leadership and protection. That was shameful and a dereliction of its constitutional duties and obligations. Furthermore the condemnation by the government of Ireland of the northern Irish citizenry who took up arms in their own self-defence and the pursuit of their own civil rights was hypocritical at best – and positively malign at worse.
Micheál Martin attacking Sinn Féin for the actions of the (Provisional) Irish Republican Army is risible. Where was he and his party in the 1930s? ’40s? ’50s? ’60s? I don’t remember members of Fianna Fáil manning the barricades in Derry or Belfast as British paramilitary police rampaged through Irish homes and communities in 1969. I don’t remember Ireland’s Óglaigh na hÉireann crossing the border in 1972 to save the people of the Bogside.
The government of Ireland and the nation-state of Ireland caved in to the violence and threat of violence from the British minority in the country and their allies in Britain in the 1920s and having been running scared ever since.
Its not just a matter of coming to terms with the British minority in the north-east of the country. Its also coming to terms with the moral cowardice of the Irish political establishment. Perhaps its time for the government of Ireland to apologise? Not for what it did before and during the “Troubles” but for what it didn’t do.
As for the minority British community in Ireland they should expect and receive a fair and equitable settlement within a Reunited Ireland. But the sense of innate entitlement they already carry to dictate the shape of that settlement in everything from flags to anthems must be tackled head on. We are not a colony and they are not a colonial master race.
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bangordub said:
Can’t disagree with a word of that to be honest. I get honestly angry when I hear Fianna Fail Nua talk in condescending terms about northern nationalism and please don’t even get me started on FG claiming the legacy of Collins. My Grandmother had words on that subject with me. She mentioned the words “blueshirts”, “Shotgun” and “Backside” in the same sentence. I still love my Gran.
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Séamas Ó Sionnaigh (An Sionnach Fionn) said:
I feel much the same. Those who benefited from the revolutionary violence of 1916-1923 lecturing those who were sold out by it is stomach-turning. Was the War of Independence not an All-Ireland affair? Was not the Belfast Brigade part of the same IRA as the Dublin Brigade, prosecuting the same struggle, fighting the same enemy (or enemies)?
The early 20th century ambushes, assassinations and battles of Belfast, Derry, Armagh and Tyrone are as much a part of Micheál Martin’s inheritance as the battles of Dublin, Cork, Tipperary and Kerry. And Enda Kenny too.
The hypocrisy needs to stop.
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bangordub said:
I absolutely agree with every word.
Fianna Fail is a party that has been hijacked by self serving 26 county insular little irelander philosophy. It has become more FG than FG itself. I had an exchange with a member recently about Poppy wearing. An example if it was needed of the disconnect between a politically ambitious eejit and the reality of the electorate and what I still regard as a constitutional imperative. The interesting thing now is what would be the result of a 32 county united Ireland vote
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hoboroad said:
I hate to bring that woman up again.But what Margaret Thatcher said to Garret Fitzgerald about getting financial aid for the North from the EU to quote her “I need this money for my people” was a very telling comment. When push comes to shove England’s interest always comes first with any British Government. Not exactly as British as Finchley is it.
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bangordub said:
Hoboroad,
Can you link that? It is very interesting. I agree with your broad point about the English interest.
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hoboroad said:
http://www.u.tv/utvplayer/video/151065
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hoboroad said:
http://ulstersdoomed.blogspot.co.uk/2007/04/is-unionism-cargo-cult.html?m=1
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Sir Ike Broflovski said:
Hmm. Is that a “chat about the way forward” you want Dub or a chance to deliver a lecture on inherited guilt and to discuss the terms of unionist surrender? You may need to buy all the drinks if you want any takers. And what’s that Leinster flag all about? You’re in Ulster now :).
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bangordub said:
Sir Ike,
I am sure you aware that it is the flag of Ireland prior to the tricolour adopted post 1916?
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alphadale said:
OK I’ve semi bitten. Bangordub you say you want a chat about the way forward but instead you seem to have delivered a dogmatic stereotypical republican lecture. Whats ‘way forward’ about that. Being all matey on the back of such a lecture is something of a mixed message and does not attract discussion.
You go on about history a lot. Really, what happened in 1916 or 1690 hardly interests anybody in NI these days. Diminishing numbers are even interested in the troubles (though such interest is more substantial). Repeating the events of yester-decade or yester-century is not the way forward.
On reading your blog generally I suspect you have a rather limited idea of unionists, or more correctly those who are pro-union. A large portion of pro-union people think the DUP are wankers. We think the leadership of the Orange Order is dire and though some of us might like a wee skip to a tune on the twelfth a large portion think the OO is pretty irrelevant. In a way your narrow definition is understandable as these are some of the most noticeable groupings, but in a way it suits a republicans agenda to label all pro-union people as DUP/OO.
Remember , most people don’t vote, recent polls show a majority of Catholics to be pro-union one way or another. NI is secularizing. I think of my workplace, majority Catholic and I’m pretty sure two thirds to three quarters of the nominal Catholics there are pro-union or apolitical.
The extreme ways of the past are dying off, bar certain ‘clusters’ of the old ways continuing to spasm in certain sections of society – dissent republicans, uneducated protestant working class etc. But these clusters are not representative of broader NI society, and too much focus is put on the smaller ‘clusters’ and not enough on moderate man in the middle. I think your blog falls into that trap at times.
It seems a substantial number of Catholics even a slight majority are happy to stay in the UK – this is in spite of the DUP/OO etc. I read into that that such Catholics are able to see past the bullshit of the DUP (and Sinn Fein) and realise that most Protestants are not bigots or vandels or law breckers, and the benefits of the NI-GB union are many and that the antics of DUP/OO do not offset them. In short, they can think for themselves without predjudice and without being a slave to history.
Republicans wondering how they might get their definition of a ‘unionist’ (ie protestants) to be supportive of a UI is fantasy politics stuck in time. The world, and NI has moved on. You have to persude all the pro-union people no matter what their religion or none is! Sinn Fein calling for a border poll was a desperate attempt to keep the dogma of a UI alive, not reflective of the modern dynamics of the broad church of NI society. The idea of a UI, while not quite dead, is fading and fading, and it is pretty much consigned to the margins.
The future has a union with GB, I believe this sincerely. The real question is, and the real dynamic is, how do we make life as good as possible for as many as possible for those in Northern Ireland?? That includes you BD! It is plain that for a cross community many the answer to such a question involves the maintenance of the union. The union can be refined and bettered for sure, and there is a lot of work to be done but the union is widely desired nonetheless.
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Political Tourist said:
Was not the main political thought of those South of the Border and elsewhere that the Northern State wouldn’t last.
I don’t really want to rain on anybody’s parade but what exactly could Dublin have done.
Force of arms was out after the civil war.
And the leadership of Northern Nationalism in the 1920s was who exactly, a three way split between Joe Devlin and a Republican Movement that was split in two with pro and anti treaty factions.
What a wake up call the three factions must have got once the penny dropped they were stuck inside the Orange State, with no help coming.
Maybe an UI might never come but here’s for sure the days of majority unionist rule are gone forever.
How working class loyalism reacts to living as a minority in their own little Statelet remains to be seen.
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footballcliches said:
‘So. In my view the way forward is simple. I, as a republican, would love to see the British Unionist minority in the north join me for a pint and a chat about the way forward. Is that a mad request?’
Oh, that depends, they may be tee totallers and it must not be on the Sabbath of course 🙂 All kidding aside, I do not believe this will happen with the current bunch of unionist pols we have to face. Will this happen with Basil and John? Indeed, for they already speak to nationalists and they are willing to take risks not only for peace but reconciliation, the flip side of the peace and the part we need desperately.
Am I going to try and lecture PNLs on what I think is wrong or rotten with what has been created? I’ll leave that aside if I was ever given the role to discuss these things with political unionism in an official capacity of some kind (I’m thinking of FJH’s pan nationalist secret society (probably should be private) of bloggers he was thinking of starting, http://fitzjameshorselooksattheworld.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/when-a-new-band-of-journalistic-brothers/).
I am just very surprised we haven’t had any of these discussions yet as a society. I have noted Declan Kearney’s efforts before to try and kick start something in relation to reconciliation between the communities here and all we seemingly see is every one else trying their level best to find a reason not to engage in these discussions with reasons such as ‘ooh, it’s SF starting it, we can’t go near it’, it’s actually depressing at times.
Hope you don’t mind BD me promoting something but I have a guest blogger, Cleenish, posting on cross border thinking and he will be dealing with the actual construct we use for thinking of ourselves (Northern Nats) on the whole matter and what we need to do to try and make a UI a reality. It’s a two parter too! http://wp.me/p1eiVW-mk
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hoboroad said:
Nigel Dodds the DUP MP for North Belfast taken to hospital in London because of a suspected heart attack.
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Fear Feirsteach said:
Sad news for opponents of sectarianism. Hope he gets well soon.
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bangordub said:
Thanks all for the comments above, Alphadale, I can assure you that I have no illusions about unionists in the north. I am friends with more than a few. The funny thing is that most of them are of the opinion that a reunited ireland is just a matter of when, not if. Have you experienced this?
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alphadale said:
Not really Bangdub, only a little. What, most of your unionist friends think a UI is inevitable?? That seems a little odd to me just how generous are you being on your definition of ‘inevitable’ ;; Just because a Bangorian gentleman might wear an Irish rugby shirt into Jenny Watts doesn’t make him think a UI is inevitable ;; How many nominal nationalists (ie Catholic pro-union human beings) think a UI is ineveitable?? What is a UI anyway??
Of the one or two who’ve thought it, on conversation we strip it back to basically, they have been somehow brainwashed by the Gerry Adams relentless propagandizing over the years. When a few alternate facts are placed before them eg those recent polls, the state of down south’s economy, they are much reassured, and they go home in much lighter mood;;
I have numerous Catholic or nominal Catholic friends, acquaintences and workmates. I’d say the majority of these are pro-union or apolitical and see NI as a permanent thing, pretty much at one with the all-UK link. I’d say this is especially so in ‘mixed marriages’. I doubt they see a UI on the horizon. I should get them to meet and reassure your nervous unionist friends down there in Bangor, what, next Ireland rugby game in Jenny Watts?? Must be a Bangor thing, too much time to think;;; Maybe its the greening of Bangor is getting to them;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
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babeuf said:
;;;;;;;;;;;;;; Actually, and it’s the background I come from, a lot of my protestant (not unionist – shock horror!) think a united Ireland will and should happen… …and I don’t live in Bangor. Gerry Adams has very little to do with it. Won’t be anything left to hold onto once Unionists do their damnest to pass welfare reform and health care privatisation…
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alphadale said:
its the background you come from Babeuf, my you’ve appeared from nowhere you sound like one of the Bangdub’s friends.
Not according to the BBC poll the Life and Times Surveys and the census. I think it was the latest Life and Times that said just 4% of protestants were pro United Ire.
I wouldn’t even really describe myself as ‘unionist’ anyway, not the narrow NI viewpoint which has been tainted by hardliners
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Political Tourist said:
You’d think Alphadale would be more worried about political events just off the Antrim coast.
500 days left until the country that gave us John Knox and Presbyterianism votes YES or NO to ending the union.
If only the unionists could get a Norn Iron angle in Scotland.
Maybe religion, nope, most of the YES camp seem to be more in the 1790s Antrim and Down United Irishmen camp ie prods.
Your main tartan unionist is more likely to be a ex Celtic FC director.
What strange times we live in.
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Fear Feirsteach said:
Is history gonna repeat itself at Holy Cross?
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bangordub said:
I strongly recommend this as an excellent and thought provoking read:
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footballcliches said:
Thanks for your continued support BD, I think it’s been a great post from Cleenish and more importantly the feedback and ideas from many have been really great. As always, everyone is welcome to come on over.
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footballcliches said:
Also, btw, we have the 2nd part of the series. My apologies for selling it like that…
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carrickally said:
On a point of order, BD, journalists were not banned from Craigavon House; the BBC journalist was not properly accredited. UTV and the print journos were there for the whole shebang (which I wasn’t, I was down the road with the kids at the Folk Museum).
Other than that, a thought-provoking post. We took the wrong turn at the cross-roads, no doubt about that. And some of those who hounded O’Neill, old men now but young and angry then, realise it too. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
You talk about the external view; as you well know, the rest of the UK isn’t external to us and that, to an extent, is where the British on Ireland view ourselves. The southern view, to us, is the external view.
I don’t drink but I will happily talk with you about the way forward. To my mind, we need a truthful discussion about a shared future, where everything is on the table. My first starting point would be secular education, with those who want faith-based or ethos schooling pointed in the direction of funding it themselves or sending their kids to Sunday school.
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bangordub said:
Carrickally,
Yer point of order: “the BBC journalist was not properly accredited.” ah c’mon, show me a single solitary journalistic report? one? And who was “Accrediting” them, the UVF? For fecks sake, I can imagine your comments if the IRA was “accrediting” journalists.
The rest of what you say is emminently sensible. I would say that although you regard the rest of the UK as internal they regard you, as unionists as external. They always have. I’m open to argument on that but I have plenty of experience to back it up. Your last paragraph is particularly interesting, thanks!
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alphadale said:
Bangordub, some in mainland GB might view NI as external, but a significant some in mainland UK also regard NI as internal. To say otherwise is unbalanced and lazy labelling again. And I too have plenty of experience to back this up ( ie both sides of the coin).
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bangordub said:
Alphadale,
Fair enough, Any examples?
Team GB perhaps?
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carrickally said:
On the 5pm news on the way back from the Folk Museum I heard the report and then the “sting” that journalists were denied entry. It then followed that it was only the BBC who did not have the necessary passes. I have no idea who the organising committee is or was. If it was the modern UVF, I’d be very disappointed. If it was a “cultural group” I would be less so. I do know that it wasn’t the Orange, at least something we can’t be blamed for!
As with mainlanders, you have a point. I know very many Scotsmen who refer to us as Ireland but are very aware that we are also an integral part of the UK. In a lot of cases, I think it is mainlanders being too lazy to use the Northern bit of our name; Mark Lawrenson, what with being an capped RoI international, should know better but frequently refers to us or our players in a Premier League context as Irish, as does the likes of the Times in match reports.
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alphadale said:
Well Bangdub I wasn’t really thinking in terms of specific organisations more a substantial thread that runs through mainland GB society and through many of its individuals (and some will also think of NI as external or ‘Irish’ but they might also think of ‘Irish’ as internal – some grey area.
But off the top of my head yes UK athletics don’t know why they don’t just call it Team UK rather than Team GBNI but then of course if you are in the Bann rowing club you’d call it Team NI & GB 😉
Armed Forces very much internal
the NHS organised on an internal basis
Education- Universities UCAS system and UK wide education bodies
Professional Organisation
UK Police forces very much internal and through the use of ‘mutual aid’ as we will likely see Met Officers deployed at the Fermanagh G8
In fact all the criminal justices agencies
Trade Union organisations
There’s actually loads
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Political Tourist said:
Sad that the Caledonian connection was blanked but then again what unionist in Northern Ireland would want to think the Scots, great great great grandparents of the Ulster Scots, might wander off into the sunset.
500 days and the “union” might cease to be.
Then what?
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factual said:
It should really be pointed out that Northern Ireland unionist folk are very nice people – I have met several on an exchange program that my school did with one of the schools in Northern Ireland and they came over very well. I often read these blogs and find that people who currently live in Northern Ireland – oddly enough – often have a lack of perspective on their own neighbours perhaps based on fear or lack of normal interaction with “the other side”.
I also read comments from people in Northern Ireland saying that we in Dublin have abandoned them. Nonsense.We in Dublin actually cannot take a “one sided” view of things. We have to be an honest broker as between the different communities in Northern Ireland.
I think that hopefully one area that we can all agree on is economics – more focus from Sinn Féin on the equality issues – redistribution from rich to poor both north and south of the border, more social equality for Gay and Lesbian people, etc.. Focussing on the economic and social equality issues, from a left wing point of view – this should unite the working classes in both communities north of the border. And it is also very much of the time south of the border.
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Political Tourist said:
Factual,
Since James Connolly was strapped to chair and shot, how many victories have the Left had, North or South.
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