As we approach the 11th night and the Orange Orders 12th of July celebrations for this year I’ve been reflecting on the changes that have occurred and how so many things remain the same. There is a depressing repetitive narrative each year surrounding this weekend and the fallout which often continues for a considerable period afterwards. From a broadly nationalist perspective there is a sense of incredulity at the perceived nihilistic, self destructive behaviour of the “bonfire crowd” as well as the, at best, ambiguous response of political unionism. I’m struck by the contrasting views withing unionism towards the whole thing. I also note that this year there are subtle changes.
Carrickally of this parish blogged eloquently on this blog last year about what the 12th meant to him. It was a welcome article and described a cultural celebration that was of great importance to him. It painted a picture of a day which threatened nobody and, although not something I would partake in, I would have no objections to. Unfortunately, Medusa like, there is more than one head to this snake. Unionism is famously diverse in its opinions and difficult to unify except in the face of a common threat. Therefore a common threat must be identified if political unionism is to endure and thrive. For the avoidance of doubt that threat has “traditionally” been the likes of me, my flag and my fellow citizens in this part of the world. The threat this year appears to be extended to Anna Lo, the virgin Mary, Pakistan, Poland, the people of Palestine and the Ivory Coast amongst others. I hear not a single unionist voice raised against this. Not one.
Yet I see subtle things. Perhaps I am mistaken. The Orange Order have actually discouraged violent protest this year. It is qualified but it is a start. It certainly makes a change from the threats of yesteryear. One of the most interesting contributions has been made by Sammy Wilson of all people. Read the last six paragraphs of this. A direct challenge to his party leader and the Orange Order I would think.
A vibrant self confident culture is one which finds expression in a celebration in the positive celebration of its virtues and which stands proudly anywhere in the world. A culture that finds expression in burning the flags and images of its perceived enemies is a culture that is dying. I would be happy to see Carickallys vision taking its place as part of the nation but until the ugly snake is confronted and defeated within the unionist community, until the silence is ended, until respect is shown instead of hypocritically demanded, that day is some distance off.
fitzjameshorse said:
It is odd. I have been trying to compose a reasoned blog on the Twelfth all day. You have nailed it here Mr Dub.
It just gets worse. Orangemen cannot have it both ways…cherry picking Culture (sic)…its not just about good Christian men marching to church. Urinating on a Catholic Church, displaying hate flags, burning Niall O’Donnghaile in effigy at Cuan Place, putting Catholic statues on bonfires at Lanark Way and SDLP posters on bonfire sites…or the “Anna Lo Ate My Dog” signs.
Surely time that BBC and UTV stopped reporting all this as a carnival.
It is a Hate Fest.
Shameful.
Let the Tourist Board and the LetsGetAlongerists try and sell that.
Yet what surprises me most is the surprise of others.
Where have these liberals been?
I have seen these things for damn near five decades.
Yet only now when KKK flags appear, when Gay Cakes are not baked and when Alliance posters start appearing on bonfires does the middle class liberal unionists get energised to comment.
What was that old anti Nazi thing.
They burned an effigy of the Pope …I did nothing and called for Orange Parades to be accepted. cos Im not a Catholic
They burned Celtic shirts….it didnt bother me. I go to Ravenhill
They burned SInn. Fein posters…I wasnt interested. Cos Im not a Republican.But arent those residents unreasonable cos the Parade only takes five minutes to pass.
And they burned SDLP posters…Im not a nationalist….those residents are holding back progress.
But …I was a bit uncomfortable when they got out the UVF Flags and the KKK Flags because its bad for the whole Titanic-Game of Thrones image.
And burning tyres is bad for the environment. If they are gonna burn Catholic and Nationalist symbols couldnt they be more eco friendly.
But whats this? Alliance posters and Anna Lo on a bonfire.
I should say something.
Cos thats a person I voted for.
Shame Shame Shame.
I expect nothing from unionists and Orangemen and….Mike Nesbitt for Gods sake.
I have watched them for far too long.
And I have watched liberal unionists and LetsGetAlongerists for far too long.
Seriously did anyone ever expect them to say or do anything until they themselves became victims.
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carrickally said:
FJH, you’re absolutely right to paraphrase Pastor Niemoller. All too often, we stand back and let bad things happen to others. It takes a brave person to stand up to a crowd, especially if it is from his own ranks that he comes. But then it isn’t a stand if you aren’t from within.
I will however point out that the Orange have no control over virtually all of the bonfires; there are some outside of Belfast which take place at Orange Halls and they are noticably missing the symbolism. I will however direct you to the words of Rev Alistair Smyth, Deputy Grand Master, who said he “deplored” flags or effigies. As I said last year, the RoI have been good neighbours and we should show neighbourly respect. I would also add that the current Pope seems to be a very forward thinking, open and genuinely humane man and the courtesy should be extended to him (I know that makes me sound pompous but not sure the best way to word this).
BD, a good and thoughtful post once more. Sammy Wilson is more than the joker of the DUP and he raises very good points. Michael Copeland has made similar on his posts around bonfires but Sammy goes further by basically telling Ligoniel they have lost. The big fear is that there are other areas that will be next; Donegall St, York Rd, Newtownards Rd.
That is why a solution that sets in stone the rights, responsibilities and privileges of paraders, protesters and all citizens should be nailed down as soon as possible.
My own preference would be a protection of arterial routes where there are no alternatives, a re-evaluation of traditional routes where there are alternatives and the setting up of a voting committee based on householders on a contenious route under the auspices of the Electoral Commission and the putting in place of a bond, to be donated to charity, by organisers of parades and protests to be paid back after the event or donated depending on any breaches of an agreed and general set of rules on emblems, slogans, music and numbers involved, to be independently verified.
You may notice the time of my post and I ain’t bonfiring. Not my particular cup of tea although I met plenty of Scots in Belfast today who were really looking forward to a trip up the Shankill for the monster bonfires at Lanark Way and Lower Shankill. Each to their own, I’ll away to dust off the brolly and pack an extra pair of pants, just in case God turns out not to be a Prod on the weather front.
I hope each and every contributor on here has a peaceful and happy long weekend, whatever they are doing. Goodnight and God bless, folks.
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zig70 said:
You’re a good advocate for the 12th but nobody except the Orange thinks they bear no responsibility for the hate displayed on bonfires. They stand beside community leaders all year round but then on bonfires have no influence? Don’t buy it. The social elite who rounded on Pastor McConnell have their own solution in exodus to Donegal and further afield. See no evil etc. The Orange won’t get any respect from their neighbours while it persists. Enjoy your day though.
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benmadigan said:
Carrickally I appreciate your posts but your statements which i quote below are indicative of a Pontius Pilate washìng of hands or of a rather strange attitude to real life. I could go on but I’ll stop at 3
1) “I will however point out that the Orange have no control over virtually all of the bonfires”
What would happen if the Orange order said “No more bonfires! Beacons only!
No burning of tyres, allegedly stolen pallets, flags, hanging effigies, statues and political posters”?
Are you seriously saying nobody would take a blind bit of notice? if so, you are admitting the orange order has no influence or connection with the masses of unionist voters. The orange order is not a political party so nobody can vote for it. it represents nobody.Yet it creates havoc every summer in NI and piggy-backs on to unionist parties.
2) The big fear is that there are other areas that will be next; Donegall St, York Rd, Newtownards Rd.
So residents in those areas are to have no input into what goes on in streets where they live because the orange order is AFRAID?
And the rest of us have to put up with disorder, uncertainty, road blocks, city centres comandeered? because the Orange order (2% of the population in NI) is AFRAID?
3)”That is why a solution that sets in stone the rights, responsibilities and privileges of paraders, protesters and all citizens should be nailed down as soon as possible”.
No solution is ever set in stone – forget it! Only change is constant.
in any case is that why the Unionist parties refused to sanction the Haass proposals, walked out of talks with Ardoyne resident groups and then with other Stormont parties?
In the hope of getting a solution set in stone?
Which has never existed in world history and never will?
All of which seems to show the orange order lives in its own little world but doesn’t worry. People know it there and don’t question any of its statements.
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carrickally said:
Hi BM, I think you missed the point about bonfires which also misses the point of “Orange” culture; there are no Orange parades associated with them, there are no Orange services and so on and they are very much grass-roots. This is the same, as I noticed yesterday, with the crowds watching. More so on the way home, when the rain came on, these were overwhelmingly working class people.
One of the worst things I heard yesterday was that a sick rumour had been put on twitter that Oscar Knox was the target of a bonfire crowd, specifically in Randalstown. This has been countered by the Sons of Ulster, who I’m guessing are a local flute band that must “do” the bonfire there, stating that Oscar was a hero. I hope the person who spread this rumour is prosecuted under whatever legislation is there to deal with that certain type of sicko.
And on twitter, got a message from my missus that Mark Simpson had tweeted that an Orangeman passing St Patrick’s doffed his bowler to the parish priest, nodded and then put it back on. If I myself owned a hat, I would salute him too. That’s the type of common decency that is needed, not just to be displayed but to be kept in the hearts of all those involved in the Twelfth and life generally; Love thy neighbour as thyself.
BM, I would have hoped by your username that you’d have some knowledge of Belfast; there are no residents on those streets, they do not go through Nationalist areas and they are how one gets from A to B. Reasonably similar situations to Crumlin Road at Ardoyne shops and Donegall St at St Matthews. On that relationship, I noticed a priest from Holy Cross (Crumlin Road) was rededicating a memorial to IRA terrorists in Short Strand with the SF former Lord Mayor from there (apologies for the anglicisation, Niall O’Donnelly, I don’t mean to offend but would probably be in worse trouble for attempting the Gaelic spelling) in late June. I could sympathise with the local priest looking out for his parishoners, even if I consider it personally to be, and let’s be polite here, ill-advised in a general sense even if it is the right thing to do locally. I’m willing to hear the rationale behind the invite and attendance from someone across town.
And finally, what is to stop a long-term settlement to parading by protecting rights, outlining responsibilities and making sure that respect is either developed, maintained or put in place for possibly the first time? I know it’s the viewpoints we come from, unionism is conservative and wants to be steady, republicanism is about flux and (I’ll use this very loosely, just as I did with conservative) progressivism. Stability is a very un-republican word but that is just what is needed here because without it, the issues and the participants just aren’t going to go away.
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RJC said:
Carickally, I hope you enjoyed the weekend. You always come across as a very reasonable man yet suffer I feel, from an intransigence that is so much a part of the Unionist mindset.
Regarding your twitter anecdotes re Oscar Knox and the bowler hat doffing Orangeman. I appreciate that these are personal anecdotes, but add little to the matters being discussed. ‘Some people said some stuff on the Internet’ is a fact of life now. These examples you cite add little to the public perception of the 12th.
As you are Internet savvy enough to be on Twitter, then surely you are Internet savvy enough to copy and paste Niall Ó Donnghaile’s name into your post? Your refusal to do so displays a certain stubbornness.
You also turn the conversation around from the Orange Order to the ‘IRA terrorists in Short Strand’. Whether you like it or not, many do not regard these people as terrorists. You and many others do however, which is understandable. This is not about the IRA though. This is about the Orange Order. The IRA no longer exist.
Your preference for the ‘protection of arterial routes where there are no alternatives, a re-evaluation of traditional routes where there are alternatives and the setting up of a voting committee based on householders…’ etc I find baffling. Marching, marching, marching. Why the obsession with marching? I find this very weird.
Here’s wikipedia to help us – ‘Marching refers to the organized, uniformed, steady and rhythmic walking forward, usually associated with military troops.’
Why do you feel the need to have military style activities enshrined in law?
I have tried not to make this post offensive – we obviously hold opposing points of view in certain areas. I am just trying to better understand my neighbours. Who I am supposed to love as myself.
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Political Tourist said:
Feel quite upset there was no mention of any Scottish “YES” campaign posters or the odd Saltire on the bonfires.
Or is that bogeyman too close to home.
Like burning your grandparents home down.
Roll on September 18th.
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sammymcnally said:
Political Tourist, there could me a mass exodus of Unionists from Scotland to Green Field number 4 – in the unlikely event of a Yes vote.
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antain said:
Jesus no!
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sammymcnally said:
antain, lol
carrickally, a Yes vote in Scotland would surely keep Green Field Number 4 out of the clutches of Immaculatus Hibernicus in perpetuity?
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carrickally said:
We had eight Scottish guests over with us and it surprised me that all will vote no; I thought there might have been a bit of Scots nationalism, even within the OO there.
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Political Tourist said:
Will be interesting to see the home addresses of those charged with the 3 or 4 Belfast stabbing incidents over the weekend.
Very Glasgow weapons, the old knifes and swords.
Mac the Knife comes to Belfast.
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carrickally said:
PT, it certainly would. I also hope that whoever was involved is punished by the full force of the law. I was involved in a knife crime pressure group many moons ago as it’s a hateful weapon and all too easy for someone to carry and use.
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sammymcnally said:
carrickally,
if your attitude was the predominant one in the Orange Order the controversy surrounding parades would be greatly reduced and speaking for myself – I think there would and should be a serious effort to accommodate parading.
I think at the moment many/most Nationalists can the say with justification that the events parading/bonfires etc surrounding the 12th makes it in essence an anti-Catholic festival.
Can you confirm if you agree with the 3 following statements?
1) Some/many of the bands show on the BBC program the 12th are associated with sectarianism (e.g. Young Conway Volunteers, Lower Woodstock Flute Band) and in some instances paramilitiarism.
2) Most bands will have part of their repetoire some songs that would be fairly described as anti-Catholic? (Easily confirmed on YouTube).
3) Should the BBC be broadcasting a program for a duration of 1.5 hours in which these bands are given airspace?
I personally find it deeply offensive to see such bands given the respectability of pubic airtime in a way that speaks of pageantry but makes zero reference to the extremely negative attitude and contribution of these bands (where anti-Catholic) to community relations.
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carrickally said:
sammy, if you were a barrister posing those questions where I had no choice but to answer in one word, the answer to all three would be yes.
Now to break that down:
1 I know not of the insights into each band and each member but I think it would be fair to say that there is sectarianism in most working class areas and behind closed doors in plenty of middle class ones too.
2 Even my own band has a march called Cock of the North which includes the refrain from the Sash, a tune that is considered sectarian by some.
3 My wife caught me on the TV during the live coverage from Belfast in all my crowning glory, so yes.
Wouldn’t want to go down the whataboutery route here so I’ll leave it at that on all three points.
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sammymcnally said:
carrickally,
Refreshingly honest answers.
If you would be so good as to permit me to rephrase the final question and hoping you can leave aside your own role in the proceedings.(Apologies can you remind me of your band name?)
Do you think the BBC should be broadcasting programs about the 12th in its current format – which simply report the pageantry without reference to the controversial political elements surrounding the Belfast parade(e.g. Parades Determinations and paramilitary figures on flags) and without reference to those controversial elements as is currently the case – as without the context being included the programme appears promotional in nature?
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Political Tourist said:
A YES vote in Scotland with a side effect of a few thousands Scottish Orangemen rushing off to Belfast restart 1970s style “Tartan Gangs”.
I’m sure the Scottish public would find that a hard one.
Make me think of the old “Bay City Rollers” song, Bye Bye Baby, Baby Good Bye.
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Carrickally said:
Sammy, I actually do think it is reasonable to have the programmes on the twelfth without mentioning the other issues. The news more than adequately covers those aspects. Johnston star is my band, btw.
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bangordub said:
For those interested, I’m sure Carrickally won’t mind me posting this link showing his band in action, I’m assuming he is keeping his back firmly to the camera in keeping with his natural modesty! 😉
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sammymcnally said:
carrickally,
I have tried my damnest but have failed miserably to be in the least bit offended by that – and I have to admit (and keep this to yourself) – rather enjoyed it.
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RJC said:
That performance has rekindled some long forgotten memory of dancing with a girl at an Irish College céilí back in my teenage years…
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Carrickally said:
Thanks bd for the video and Sammy for the comments, the Galway dancer is a wee bit boring for my particular sections (like a utility sub, I can play a few of the flutes badly) but the tempo changing keeps it interesting, and exhausting if playing the bass.
You may be offended at the end of every performance, we play the queen. We are no longer really a marching band but I personally miss it. We used to have some great days out on the last Saturday, with one occasion I’ll never forget. Mainly because I was too drunk to remember!
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bangordub said:
“at the end of every performance, we play the queen”
And there’s the rub Carrickally,
You see I have no issue with those who pledge alliegance to the Saxe-Coburgs playing their anthem. I expect the same courtesy to be extended to me and my fellow countrymen naturally………
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Political Tourist said:
So Carrickally is a member of the third oldest flute band……… on the planet.
1858.
Crikey, that a year after the setting up of the Fenian Briotherhood.
“Sash my Father wore” or in that band’s case “The Sash my great great greatfather wore” maybe even more.
If fact it might even predate the music hall song “The hat my father wore” which the “Sash” is a parody of.
Kept that quiet C.
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carrickally said:
PT, that’s very true. IIRC, only Churchill and Hamilton in Londonderry are older. My family has been in the band since the start, it was also named after the rich guy who owned the mill and donated money for instruments. That was a very Victorian thing to do and can be seen across Lanarkshire and the North of England in their “mill bands” before Trade Unionism became the dominant force in working class music from the late 1800’s to the late 1900’s.
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carrickally said:
RJC, you asked about why marching; remember that the Orange involved people who were originally Volunteers in the 1780’s and who would go on to become Militia in 1798. Therefore it made sense that they paraded as a body. Also, many might wonder why it is called a Field. Historically, the parade in the morning was the march to battle, the field would have hosted a sham fight, like that which still continues at Scarva, and then the return parade was the victory stage, after the Battle was won (again). Remember, it is to commemorate a battle, after all.
The bands developed from those fife and drums used in armies at the time, again it made sense to parade with these and doing so in march-time reinforced the idea of an Orange march. Interestingly, in the countryside, they are more frequently called walks and the pace is slower than Belfast, allowing for pipe bands and lambegs.
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RJC said:
That’s very interesting, thank you. The whit walks and brass band contests in Manchester/Saddleworth are worth investigating, although I suspect that you are already aware of these
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whit_Friday
I would have thought that sitting down to play would be preferable to walking/marching – particularly in the case of wind instruments, where breathing forms an integral part of the playing. Competitions and concerts in indoor concert halls or outdoor bandstands would be easier on the players, and cause far less controversy than marching, I suspect!
What is the significance of Barnett’s Demesne as the ‘Field’ in Belfast?
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carrickally said:
Barnett’s Demesne was hired from BCC for the first time about a decade ago. It actually knocks about a mile off the distance to the old field at Minnowburn, which IIRC was owned by the Orange but was up a very narrow road which was murder to get bands and banners up and down.
The links between NI and NoE brass bands are particularly strong, and we also have english brass adjudicators at our flute contests. They like a big, bassy sound which has led to the development of very strong bass ends and huge bass flutes the size of drainpipes in some of the bigger bands. Our biggest flute is the Cbass, which I play. Wouldn’t fancy walking for more than a couple of miles playing it, and I’ve just walked 10 of our 14 miles on Saturday carrying the banner!
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RJC said:
Would it be churlish of me to ask how something can be considered part of a ‘traditional route’ if that tradition only stretches back ten years?
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SDLP supporter said:
Great to see a positive and harmonious attitude between the two sides developing. It would be amazing if this grew and grew!
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bangordub said:
SDLP supporter,
I’m also happy to see engagement upon these points, however, it is important to remember that Carrickally is not a spokesman for the OO, nor is he representative of the “Bonfire mob or the blood and thunder bands”.
What he is doing is articulating a voice of Unionism that is seldom heard. Indeed it is noticable over on Slugger that a theme is developing about the divergence between the country and the Belfast elements and this is being articulated by nationalist commentators for the most part. I think this is something that is a matter for members of the OO to discuss internally for the most part to be honest.
If this blog can help in that process then I’m happy.
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carrickally said:
BD and SDLP supporter, as you know any spokesmen are quickly torn down in unionism, it’s our key strength but also major weakness – individualism.
I think the country/city split is slightly overplayed but from what I understand it also reflects tensions in other organisations between groups in working-class areas and those in middle-class ones. GAA springs to mind in Belfast with what I’ve heard about the westies from the toffs.
I think your blog does help, it provides a much less confrontational forum than slugger, for example.
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factual said:
To be fair to Mick its probably pretty hard to run a site like Slugger and just like any refereeing process, mistakes are made. As is generally the case on the internet, on the whole its best just to read the blog pieces and not look at the comments.
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Political Tourist said:
If Johnny (Mad Dog) Adair hadn’t shot the place up it’s possible his idea of a Prod Day might have overtook the 12th as the big parade in loyalist West Belfast.
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jude42 said:
Has anyone in unionism/the Orange Order called for a second look at the rules and aims of the Order, which are blatantly anti-Catholic? This is in contrast to the (average?) Orangeman who simply looks for a day of colour (guess which?) in a drab summer, a meeting with friends and neighbours, and maybe a bottle or two of stout. I’m convinced of the need for the second look is essential if the Twelfth is to become the generally-accepted day it might.
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carrickally said:
Jude, perhaps you don’t know that the rules and qualifications were revised within the last decade and now include everyone who’s not a reformed Prod – that’s agnostics and Buddhists too, gods love them all.
I do agree that rules require constant updating, especially to remove the difficulties surrounding attending chapels for funerals or weddings. I’ve done both, and at a confirmation where I got caught out as a Prod by continuing the Lord’s Prayer past the usual cut-off point.
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sammymcnally said:
carrickally, that is great starting point for a story…
The priest returned to the pulpit and stared down menacingly at the crowd, the large church fell silent.
“One of you”, the priest bellowed, “kicks with the wrong foot”. He looked around the church for the guilty party.
One middle-aged man sitting alone in a near empty pew towards the rear of the church nervously turned to gauge the distance to the large doors that led to the (relative) safety of the small Nationalist streets that ran behind the Church of the Immaculate Virgin.
He knew his Scottish complexion, bowler hat and large Lambeg drum which he had on the seat beside him gave him away as an obvious Prod even if he had stopped at the right place in the Lord’s prayer. How could he have been so reckless?
His mother had always told him not to go into a Catholic Church – and now he understood why.
He could see the 2 young girls in the pew behind his nervously pointing at him – they had heard him saying too much of the Lord’s prayer and probably hadn’t seen a Protestant before…
they were no doubt expecting him to perform some dastardly Prod-Jihadist deed in their place of worship. He knew that as far as Catholic are concerned there was just Catholics and Non Catholics.
The virgin Mary seems to mock him as she peered down from the enormous statues not 5 feet away – he felt nauseous from the incense and the inevitability of the terrible fate that awaited him
he had to act now
He took of his bowler hat and pushed it and the Lambeg drum away towards the elderly lady who seemed oblivious to the drama and started to move slowly towards the edge of the pew. Thinking about it the elderly lady could pass for a Prod herself.
But enough of such speculation – he knew he hadn’t much time
…but before he could get to his feet the priest’s voice resounded around the church.
“Shut the doors”…
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Glenn S said:
Its important not to criticize protestants and Orangemen for their basic and core beliefs, which are by definition opposed to the top-down governance structures of the Catholic church and relately of the absolute monarchy of the Stuart dynasty. That opposition to absolutism and top-down governance actually seems as relevant in todays world as it did back in the 1600s
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sammymcnally said:
I largely agree with that – except the last sentence.
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jude42 said:
I’m saddened but not overly surprised by Glenn S’s response. It sounds suspiciously like not-an-inchism. The OO may not change but the world around it is changed and changing. If it is incapable of self-reflection it is ultimately doomed by its own inaction.
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Political Tourist said:
Glenn S,
You must know some clever Orangemen if they came out with that mouthful.
The Orangemen i know just don’t like the RC church, the IRA, a geographical area called “Southern Ireland, Celtic FC, Man Utd, general papists and strangely anything Islamic or Roumanian and oh Polish people.
None the above would be in any order.
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carrickally said:
PT, it’s one of the things we as Orangemen are most proud of; our democratic structure. It’s also why things take so long to get done.
With every strength there is a weakness.
Sammy, love the story. Fortunately, my complexion is more germanic than scots so I can pass myself off as a bayern in chapel! Mind you, over the last couple of weeks I’ve been talking with my dreadful German to some visitors to Belfast and can confirm that I don’t have a clue what anyone south of Nurnberg says!
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sammymcnally said:
carrickally,
can you write a short (or long) start to the story – i.e. how you got to the church, with your (fictitious lambeg drug and bowler)?
and we can ask Bangordub to join it together and perhaps we can get a grant for a cross-community writing program from the EU.
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Political Tourist said:
Personally i always thought Orangemen as being a pretty honest and open bunch.
What you see on the tin is what you get.
The Orange State was around for 50 years.
The rest is history.
For non unionists to say Orangemen are poor souls who are deeply misunderstood or just like couple of pints of stouts and a wee parade is bordering on plain eccentric.
Btw, in the entire history of NI nobody ever tried to ban Christmas.
Scotland banned it in 1560 and it only became an official holiday in 1958.
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sammymcnally said:
What is interesting is to try and take a dispassionate look at the significance of the ‘glorious revolution’ not in the context of the parades commission but in the context of the development of secularish British state. Anyone who has visited Chatsworth – which is in part a shine to King Billy – cant but be impressed with the contribution – which seems largely positive (from a British perspective) of having the Dutch mercantile class running the country.(Although African slaves and colonies aplenty may take a different view)
Even allowing for being brought up a Catholic the ‘Protestant’ faith is seems an altogether more secular, more democratic sensible way to try and organise people.
The horrible reality for us of a non-religious republican persuasion is that the role of the Church in Ireland has been extremely negative on balance – and the lunacy of putting a bunch of celibate men and women in charge of the country’s children and especially their most vulnerable children is now exposed as that – especially in the South – where the Church determined social policy resulting in the brightest people simply emigrating.
The politics of the glorious revolution aside – the South could have done with a serious dose of Dutch mercantilism – certainly better than the dreadful coalition of church and gombeenery resulting in endemic corruption and the bankrupting of the country(90 years after partition) by FF.
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Munsterman said:
Humph…from what I can see here, you Northern lads are getting on far too well withj each other for my liking 🙂 …
What’s next ? Are ye going to get together and abandon us ?
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carrickally said:
Even bangordub has been shouting No Surrender this week, munsterman!
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bangordub said:
Indeed Munsterman!
Great to see the the Dubs winning again today!
Carrickally,
No surrender indeed, perhaps the hackneyed slogans of yesteryear are best left where they belong?
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carrickally said:
Slogans are centuries’ old soundbites, aren’t they?
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bangordub said:
Exactly, they belong in past centuries!
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RJC said:
This is probably not the place to ask, but I’d like to read another guest post by carrickally. I don’t entirely understand the musical traditions and styles of Orange/Ulster/Pipe/Flute bands – I have an interest in music, so would enjoy reading about this aspect of Irish musical culture. No worries if not.
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bangordub said:
RJC,
I’ve no problem with that if Carrickally is so inclined
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carrickally said:
I’d be more than happy to pen something on bands. I’ll get cracking and mail it to you, BD.
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Political Tourist said:
I’d like to know what is the oldest “orange” tune/song.
And Carrickally’s band, who was the original mill owner that payed for instruments.
Did the band start as an orange band?
Is it true there’s more marching bands now than ever before?
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carrickally said:
PT, good questions. The oldest orange tune must surely be Lilibulero, words penned during the late 1680’s but the music (as happens so often) adapted from earlier popular music.
The original mill owner was Johnston, hence the name of the band being Johnston Star.
No idea if the band started as an orange band but that would seem likely, given the period.
It is true that there are more marching bands now. Most of the 660 that are quoted are affiliated to flute band organisations. Then there are maybe another two dozen or so established bands, such as ours and some other flute plus brass, that are affiliated to the North of Ireland Bands Association.
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RJC said:
I would be interested to know of differences (apart from the obvious musical ones) between the flute, pipe and ‘blood and thunder’ bands. Urban/rural? Class differences? Are some considered more political than others? Do members play different instruments across different bands or are their allegiances only to one band? Why there has been such an increase in band membership and marches post GFA etc. Questions, questions… I look forward to reading your blog, carrickally.
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