Brilliant article here from Barton Creeth, our resident Californian abroad. Please take the time to read this. It isn’t often we get the opportunity to get a view other than a local one but although Barton lives in Belfast, his view is, perhaps, less biased than mine or others.
I have sympathy for my brothers and sisters living in loyalist communities, many of which bear the brunt of some of the worst levels of poverty and social deprivation in the UK. I also take to heart that many of my loyalist friends are well educated, financially comfortable, and simply take delight in their cultural and national identity and want the best for everyone living in Northern Ireland. They are tolerant, inclusive, faithful, caring people. There is nothing wrong with being a loyalist, and until people come to terms with that statement, the conversation really hasn’t started.
I am the first to admit that being an American, I can often misinterpret the political landscape here. But we in Northern Ireland, from whatever background, need to keep vigilant against extremism, whether it derives from republican, loyalist, anti-Islamic, or any other source. Because extremism won’t just ruin our economy, it will devastate lives…
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"We in coming days may be" 
Interesting article with some good points but there is some flawed reasoning in there too. Bryson and co. may represent the extremist fringe of the British Unionist community in Ireland but this repetitious mantra of “the Union is safe” by some in the Unionist middle makes them as blind to the reality of shifting demographics and politics in the north-east of the country as Bryson is.
When Wee Jamie talks about a “Republican state of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom” he is clearly not talking about the particulars of constitutional law or state definitions. It is perfectly clear that Bryson means that the north-east would be “Irish” in character, culturally and politically, albeit with the façade of British jurisdiction. Barton’s flippant “How can there be a republic in a constitutional monarchy?” is just plain silly and a convenient out from an inconvenient point. Easier to stick to the phantom comfort blanket that only 3% of the population of the north of Ireland favours reunification or that the British head of state is seen as a popular much-loved figure “even by Catholics“.
As for mocking “working-class Protestants”, I don’t believe people are doing that. They are mocking British nationalist and religious fundamentalists in Ireland and the culture they espouse within those idealogical boundaries. The community as a whole they are part of are not being ridiculed.
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Interesting read. I find it curious how the term ‘No Surrender’ appears to have been appropriated by the EDL. Or at least it seems to be cropping up in the misspelt Twitter feeds of EDL supporters wishing Tommy Robinson well. Extremists together across the Irish Sea. I’m not sure we will ever rid the world of extremism.
I don’t agree either that people are mocking ‘working class Protestants’ and I would hope that my tone here never comes across as such. I perhaps mock loyalists, but that’s only because they open themselves up to ridicule on a regular basis.
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I discovered your blog back in July and am enjoying reading my way through the many excellent submissions.
I have also mentioned the blog to friends of mine and they all have came back to me with very similar themes.
I suggest they are fairly average for the general public in the South:
1. A demographic shift moving to the catholic –nationalist side will only reverse the winner -looser divide ie it will just create a violent loyalist minority (like republicans in the past)
2. Unionist reaction to the smallest change eg the reality of the flag over Belfast hall or one or two contentious marches means they are incapable of major change.
3. Nothing kills momentum or scares people away from expressing any support for nationalists like Republican violence.
4. We have a peaceful society in the Republic why get involved in a problem we can more or less ignore.
5. There will be no major change for at least 10-20 years. No point taking any interest now.
These are all points raised by middle class 40 year olds from the Republic – Are they right or what can be done to change things?
I know this is not directly linked to this post but was not sure where best to submit it!
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Thanks Navanman, appreiciate the comments BD
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Navanman I’ll have a go at some of your questions
1. If a United Ireland did happen I agree there would likely be some sort of violent backlash but there would be no way Loyalists could sustain any sort of campaign with no support/collusion from the British. With both governments working together any violent response would be dealt with rather quickly. I would expect civil disobedience being a more likely outcome but the days were that can bring down a country/government are gone. Paisley tried in 77 and it failed miserably and the current fleg protests have descended into pantomime stuff.
2. This is a problem and the blame lies squarely at the door of Unionist politicians who mostly seem to think its still the 1930s and that everything is all fine and dandy in our wee country and then something like BCC flag happens and rather than explaining to their voters that times are changing they dont they kick in their heels and find excuses – dont you know the fleg crisis was the fault of the Alliance Party (those people who actually helped keep the flag flying) or the boundary commissions fault those people who actually maintained pretty much the same boundaries on BCC for 40 years ensuring at the last elections a 35% unionist vote actually returned 41 % of the seats for Unionism – how unfair. The only comfort is if the majority of the population of Northern Ireland vote for change and these fleggers along with their dinosaur politicians continue to obstruct they may come under a whole lot more pressure from the various governments and authorities to sort it out
3. This is true and in the news today there are reports of the Dissidents murdering people again. These guys who represent next to no-one dont even realize that they themselves are the biggest threat to any United Ireland.
4. Never understood how so many in Dublin could ignore what was going on less than 100 miles away. To be honest they can relax anyway as they are more likely yo be caught up in some of the nasty gang land criminality effecting Dublin or Limerick than any Northern troubles
5. Agree no major change soon but things could get different quickly at Stormont in 2 or 3 election cycles with a certian MMcG likely to be First Minister. In the long run I dont think most people care whether they are in Northern Ireland in the UK or Northern Ireland in a United Ireland – almost certain that autonomy would be retained. Certainly there seems to be no interest in the subject from any of the so called Nationalist or Republican parties on either side of the border as no-one has come close to making any proposals regarding a future United Ireland. I think most nationalists are pretty happy with the status quo but will happily continue to try and ‘green’ Northern Ireland to make it more representative or in flegger terms chip chip chipping away at our culture
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Firstly, superb article by Barton, many thanks for writing it from a different perspective; there’s nothing quite like the spirit of Rabbie Burns, who summed it up a couple of centuries by saying, “Wud some Power, the gift tae gi’ us, Til see oursels as ithers see us!”
Secondly, the usual good responses:
SF says that Bryson means a culturally Irish NI, prior to some stepping stone and he’s right. That is the viewpoint that is espoused. There is though, I feel, the power of generalisation going on so rather than individuals being mocked, it is the whole loyalist community. Barton has stated right at the start that he knows people who don’t conform to that stereotype.
RJC follows on from that, with the statement that he doesn’t mock loyalists as a group, something I’m more than willing to accept. The link with the EDL is a mantra-base and probably through facebook friending. I’m always disturbed by racism being in any way associated with loyalism.
Navanman, thanks for your input. There’s nothing you’ve said that hasn’t come across in my conversations in the flesh with Irish people over the last few years. Maybe they’re telling me what I want to hear?
Boondock, I enjoyed your rebuttal. If loyalism went native, how could it not sustain a campaign of murder alone, just like the IRA did? Or is there now an acceptance that it wasn’t themselves alone? I would be truly concerned that a future conflict resulted in a return to real barbarity, not seen in the former Troubles except by accident; ie, the deliberate targetting for murder of kids. There’s a real hatred that exists in some people that needs to be rooted out, the likes of the dissidents and some of the loyalist gangsters.
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In my blog I have developed the argument in favour of interim joint sovreignty/governance of Northern Ireland over several posts, with interim being a very elastic period of time. I think such an arrangement would suit most people,checking extremists on both sides as they would no longer have any reason to exist.
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benmadigan,
Despite the best efforts of the twaddell/ fleggerists joint authority is still a way off. It will only happen if Stormont collapses. I still believe in the power of argument
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Stormont collapsing sounds so dramatic but there’s another point to consider. One has to ask whether the Stormont assembly is the best method to deliver what people voted for in the GFA. So much has not been delivered.
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bangordub any number crunching on the horizon?
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Come on Bangordub, you promised us some number crunching on the new council wards!! Please!!
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Ok, Sorry, combination of work, time and Mrs Bangordub giving off about me on the laptop!
It’s half done,
Good news is Mrs Bangordub having her hair done tonight which means I’m free to bang away on the spreadsheets 😉 Blog out tonight at some point
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