Over time, this site, which is primarily focussed upon demographic and political changes in the North East of Ireland, has been getting a broad readership with both nationalist and unionist views represented (plus a surprisingly wide readership around the world). A good thing from my point of view. Of course my 
choice of language ” the North East of Ireland”, will grate somewhat with those of a unionist mind. Unionists like to think of this place as a “Wee Country” or more specifically “Our Wee Country”. They use the flag of the old, totally discredited, Stormont parliament as if it represents the place. It doesn’t of course and the manner in which it is used reinforces nationalist opinions and memories of the days of unionist domination.
There is much talk in political circles currently about a “Shared Future”. A worthy and admirable objective except for the obvious fact, which is hardly mentioned, that there is no agreed definition of what exactly that is. The DUP think it is about integrated education full stop. Nationalists think it is about parity of esteem across a broad spectrum. We all saw what happened with the City Hall “Fleg” debacle. Currently the selection of unionist flags includes a variety of loyalist paramilitary ones alongside that of the Parachute Regiment. A calculated insult designed solely to hurt. My own opinion is simple. Shared future means both flags or none.
And so to the Eleventh Night. On Thursday night loyalists will proceed to light bonfires across the North on top of which they will burn my flag. They will do this to
celebrate a 300 year old battle for the English crown which took place at the Boyne. They will then expect me to recognise this as their “culture”. Well actually I don’t. I regard it as offensive, supremacist and incredibly insular and backward looking.
That is not to say that I don’t recognise their right to be as British as they want, I do but there is a quid pro quo. Unionism is now a minority even in the six counties they currently claim. They are actually only in a majority in one and a half of those six counties. Unionism needs to start showing some respect for the people they share this space with if they expect to receive any in return.
I make no apologies for my use of the term “North East of Ireland” although I absolutely recognise the rights of others to call it whatever they wish. I am wondering when they are going to show nationalists the same courtesy?
After the 11th night the Loyal Orders will have their annual day out on the twelfth. 
A day out that seems to me, at least, to extend for months on end. I wish individuals well, particularly those who I am in touch with here and who attend for honest reasons. I can actually understand and, to an extent, empathise with those who appreciate the comradeship and companionship of being members of a society. I fully appreciate the attractions of having an annual day out with a parade followed by speeches, burgers, music and a nice picnic in a field. But this?
I am the last person that Unionists will listen to but I seem to remember hearing a lot about nationalists distancing themselves from their more “extreme” elements. I believe that has happened unequivocally. I am yet to see the loyal orders or indeed unionist politicians utter a word against their own “extreme” elements. The silence is deafening. Perhaps it is time decent unionists took a stand?
"We in coming days may be" 
A thought-provoking post as always, BD. Tonight’s probably not going to find me at my most lucid, I’m still trying to comprehend the PC decision by applying logic. At the minute, I’m defeated as well as deflated.
But on to more pressing matters, your excellent observations. As always, I’ll try to go through the points raised.
It’s worthy to note that you mention the choice of language, I think I can automatically jump past that. When I talk about OWC, I mean the football team representing Norn Iron, rather than any over-emphasis on the country, NI, belonging solely to me and my ilk. I am of course rather attached to the Ulster Banner. Whether NI of old was totally discredited is a discussion for another day.
On to shared future, IMHO integrated education with a small i is just one part of a bigger jigsaw but perhaps the one that stands the best chance of being the first step; integrated housing contracts etc can and should work in areas such as Titanic Quarter (or perhaps the current UUJ site when it is given over) but will require real goodwill and careful management – it would also be nice if it involved real houses rather than bloody apartments!
The striving for integration in education seems to stumble though on the rocks of Catholicism. In my opinion again, I feel that nationalism in NI was in a cold house and that it was happy to cling to those cultural markers of its Irishness; the Church (and by extension the school) and the GAA. Whilst one has rogered its way to shame, the other has grown and shone but yet Church-run schools still hold that special place. In a new NI of equals, perhaps a little bit of give there would go a long way? A form of words can be found to protect a Christian ethos if that is what is wished but for those who want religious instruction, they should either get it directly at Sunday school or be prepared to fund schools as the state should not provide for that. Remember that the only legal form of discrimination in NI now lies within the teaching profession.
Flags; either both or none. An interesting point, perhaps Switzerland has an answer somewhere. Could we have missed a trick in the reform of local government and we could have had six county councils (maybe one for greater Belfast too?) with their own agreed flags? All, of course, under our great and in future more federal, mother-flag representing the three historic kingdoms on these islands.
I’ve already spoken of my feelings that RoI is very much a good neighbour these days and that it is disrespectful to burn the flag of that nation, of which BD is indeed a citizen by birth. Barring the tyres, I’m fascinated by the huge bonfires that have developed over the last twenty years. When I was wee, we would often go to the Hightown Road and watch all the little fires across Belfast before a tour of some. East Belfast held on to the tradition of the boney at the bottom of the street for a lot longer than many but even that seems to be dying this year, to be replaced by monsters. The one at New Mossley is an undoubted behemoth, visible unlit from a couple of miles away. My son wants to be a civil engineer. I’d say that some of the kids from the estates would have a good claim on either that as a future career if they put their mind to it or as a jenga champ.
Of course, your brief history lesson is true, but only partially. Depending on how in-depth you want to go, we can go for the European level, the British Isles-level or right down to the Irish level. Crack on with either the religious element or the political expediency route too. Interestingly, despite 17th century Europe being the cockpit of religious intolerance, the 30 Years’ War was brought to a conclusion by the intervention of Catholic France on the side of Protestant northern German states. The Grand Alliance was also an amalgam of religious groups who were politically linked rather than ideologically so.
Back to bonfires, they actually aren’t insular but are the remnants of a much wider former usage across Europe. You could say they were the fireworks displays of a bygone age. So backward looking, yes, I’ll give you that.
You then go on to respect; it’s time for it to be mutual. Ask what respect you want from Unionism and then what respect Unionism asks from Nationalism. See if there is a middle ground and work on it. I’ve given integrated education as a secular state model as my example – I feel that’s probably a step too far for those who see CCMS as a cultural crutch and who fear that the removal will integrate future generations into NI. You I’m sure will say parades; there are “thousands” (according to one poster a while back) and why should be care about one when there are so many? Of course, if that parade happens to be your own, of course you’re going to care about it. And if you have this horrible, nagging feeling that even though it’s not your parade this time that is intolerable, it will be the next time.
I’m very glad that you extend me every good wish as an individual for the Twelfth. I’ve a long day ahead of me, a hot day too. I’ve been discussing the preparations tonight; my mum will have water on standby half-way up the Lisburn Road for our wee clan on parade (pa, three sons, one grandson), I’ve organised a wee bag with extra socks, cacks, sun cream (yay!) and talc to allow some refreshment when we get to the hotel for our meal. I’ll be walking past St Patrick’s on Donegall St in the morning as our District is leading the County so we must make our way to Clifton St Orange Hall which means an early start. I shan’t be dancing, singing or playing anything offensive and I hope that anyone there protesting will look at me and say, “He looks like he’s proud, not arrogant.”
I hope you’re not the last person Unionists would listen to. History shows that that person is generally another Unionist so unless you’ve something to tell us all…!
I’m not convinced that Nationalists have stepped away from the extremes. Gerry Kelly’s grandstanding recently will probably be claimed as an attempt of SF to try and retain some street cred so that it hampers the dissidents’ growth. Again the lesson of history is that the republicans who come to an arrangement are replaced by those who believe they have turned their backs on the big prize. So maybe not a case of Nationalists stepping away from the extremes rather than the extremes spreading their tentacles in other directions than the ones SF have taken?
I’m sure that’s a pretty heavy read so please be gentle and pick me apart a paragraph at a time!
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Great to hear your point of view. Hope that you have a very good 12th this year.
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Phew Carrickally,
detailed answer to follow but that post deserves a detailed answer! 🙂
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Oops, Sorry Carrick,
Accidentally rated you down there instead of up. Must have been the fatigue after reading your rather lengthy response. A good read, as was the one which illicited it.
Have a good walk and try not to go anywhere you’re not wanted.
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Paul, it looks like I’ll be safe with you and BD! 14 miles will ensure that the only place I’m wanted is in the bath afterwards when Mrs CA has to put up with me at hometime!
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The problem with the July 12th celebrations is the “settler versus native” air that permeates them. The “supremacism” that so many see in the celebratory culture of the British Unionist minority in Ireland is a “colonial” supremacism. Too many Unionists view Ireland and Irishness through a filter of Plantation, of us versus them. And July 12th, the Battle of the Boyne, the marches, the Orange Order, etc. personify that.
I don’t wish to denigrate individual members of the Unionist community or deny their right to express a British/British-Irish/Scots-Irish/Anglo-Irish (or simply Irish) identity in modern Ireland. Quite the contrary. However given the origin of that identity one suspects it will always carry some pretty hefty colonial baggage of the type you don’t see in other European nations with ethno-national minorities. I do wonder if the Twelfth could ever become a national holiday or at least a non-contentious regional holiday the way St. Patrick’s is or will the historical/cultural events it commemorates dictate that it will always be about putting the Natives in their place? I would hope for the former but fear that the latter will prevail.
Perhaps Nationalists/Republicans need to embrace the Twelfth, to take the sting out of it? I’m not sure how (or if even possible). I fear that such a project might simply denigrate into oppositional Orange and Green interpretations of the 12th. The last thing we need is a sort of Hibernians’ version of the Glorious Twelfth! 😉
A friend of mine from a Dublin Church of Ireland background was canvassing recently for a specific celebration of Protestant/Scots-Irish/Ulster identity as a counter to the 12th with some suggestions about 1798 and a commemoration day in May or July. However the whole thing got bogged down in arguments. The 12th exists and I don’t expect those from the British minority community in the north-east, outside or inside a reunited Ireland, to give it up.
Apologies for the ramble. One of those days 🙂
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I think that the positive atmosphere surrounding the Donegal parade is a sign of how parades can take place in the future – both sides respecting and tolerating and emmbracing the other. I get the impression that things are really moving forward in NI, but these things take time. Integrated education and housing will help because it generates pluralism and sharing at an early stage and at home.
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“Integrated education and housing will help because it generates pluralism…”
Or it generates a monocultural British Unionist population in the north-east of Ireland where most “non-threatening” aspects of a distinct Irish national identity will be assimilated so that in time a form of British nationalism will be combined with a sort of Northern Ireland nationalism that will leave the island-nation of Ireland divided for the next thousand years.
No thank you 😉
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Pingback: Discussing Irish Politics – Or The Lack Thereof | An Sionnach Fionn
Old but still relevant.
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I strongly recommend a read of the above to those interested in Irish politics and demographics
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“A calculated insult designed solely to hurt.”
Like the use of the term North East of Ireland? Kettle pot black? It seems that to use the correct term of Northern Ireland is like actors mentioning that Scottish play to nationalists and an offence which presumably warrants immediate expulsion from the SDLP or SF. The GFA to which constant reference is made recognises its existence and right to exist so why not practice what you preach about “showing some respect for the people they share this space with if they expect to receive any in return” and refusing to utter the name of this country is surely “offensive, supremacist and incredibly insular and backward looking”.
“My own opinion is simple. Shared future means both flags or none.”
See above – the GFA recognises the right for NI (insert appropriate term which is less offensive if you wish – if NI causes such offence that you cannot use it I see why you are so offended by the loyal orders – hypersensitivity!) to exist as part of the UK and there is nothing in relation to current joint authority.
Parity of esteem / a shared future (why is it future not present?) does not mean everyone gets everything they want. If it did then the Parades Commission among other things would be obsolete – but it seems that nationalist commentators like Jude Collins think that unionists should stop marching and then republicans will dill so as well and that is a fair exchange – give us an inch and we’ll take a mile but what are you prepared to give?
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Peter,
I think you are somewhat missing the point regarding what I said about use of language.
Regarding your points about everyone getting what they want, what I want is a tricolour over city hall but I am happy to accept both flags or none, is that taking a mile? Hardly. On the other hand your use of the term “not an inch” is instructive, I seem to remember that phrase from somewhere.
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Peter, surely the point is that there is no “correct term of Northern Ireland” since there are two or more views of the region you refer to. You say “Northern Ireland” (and perhaps “Ulster”, the “Province”, etc.). That is fine. It is your political point of view and you should be free to express that, whether as a Unionist or otherwise.
Others say the North of Ireland, the North, the north-east of Ireland, the north-eastern corner of the island-nation of Ireland,etc. etc. These represent our points of view.
I say north-eastern Ireland with no intention to be insulting or deliberately provocative to others. It is simply how I see it. I presume you say “Northern Ireland”.because that is simply how you see it. I accept your terminology, hopefully you can accept mine.
The flags issue (which is such a non-issue really in the grand scheme of things) is the same in terms of equality of use. BD is correct when he says “both flags or none”. The north-east of Ireland is shared space. Nationalists recognise that and have come to terms with it (indeed, they have embraced it). Unionists on the other hand seem locked into a state of denial.
That said I do appreciate and understand the fears of the British Unionist minority in the north-east of the country. However the future is probably going to be more like Belgium than the “Northern Ireland” of old: http://sicmagazine.org/belgium/
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To fail to use the correct term for an entity recognised by the Good Friday Agreement (which apparently cannot be cherry picked unionists are often told) is a calculated insult whether intended or not – there are no other correct terms no matter what an individuals perception is and to endorse the principle of self determination in the Agreement and then undermine it by not implementing that in your terminology for Northern Ireland is at least to unionists “offensive, supremacist and incredibly insular and backward looking” – perhaps BD you would care to expand on how I missed the point but I would submit that to antagonise unionists by refusing to refer to Northern Ireland is arguably metaphorically burning our flag (or fleg as you now prefer to refer to it – another calculated insult). Also perhaps you could highlight where I said not an inch (I actually said exactly the opposite – if the discussion once again is not going to be accurate and factual then it is pointless). In terms of flags other communities might like to see their flag (only our flag is a fleg to rhyme with rag presumably) but there is no entitlement to this anywhere in GFA or anywhere else – it has to be by agreement and the question what is prepared to be given in exchange for this remains unanswered – a point worthy of note!
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Peter I think you are getting a bit upset about a name and quite frankly people can call where they live whatever they want be it Derry, Londonderry. maiden city or home etc etc. In fact Im always surprised certain unionists can even stomach Northern Ireland the very recognition of Ireland in the title to some must make them dizzy. Jeez can you imagine the mess we will be in if Scotland wins independence, people seem to have trouble distinguishing between GB and UK as it is without any further spanners thrown into the works.
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By the way fleg is most certainly not an insult dirested at the Union flag just the moron protestors who cant even fly it the right way up those same morons who show a complete lack of respect for that flag by flying it next to paramilitary flags and leaving it on lamposts for months on end until it does become a rag
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Orangmen see themselves as British, or so they tell us. So how do they mark the Twelfth in Britain? Not with a ‘national’ holiday. Those who want to mark it do – bit in their own time.
I suggest we adopt the British model.
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FF
So you are happy to endorse all other British models or just to cherry pick this one?
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Sound very much like your own stance, Peter.
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In what sense? Or are you accepting that you are at best just as hypocritical as me?
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Peter, nowhere in any international treaty or agreement signed by the Government of Ireland is there any explicit declaration by the Irish state of the recognition of the term “Northern Ireland” as the official and sole legal title for the region in the north-east of the island of Ireland that remains under British Occupation (as far as I know). The term “Northern Ireland” is used in the Belfast Agreement and some other treaties but you are drawing the inference from that use that it implies official and legal recognition of that title as the sole one. It does not. The term North of Ireland or some variation thereof is also used by the Government of Ireland in relation to the north-east region. In official Irish usage both terms are interchangeable (though the former is now more common).
Many Unionists seem confused by the (deliberate) ambiguities of the Constitution of Ireland and Irish constitutional law.
“Article 2: It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage.”
This article clearly implies that the island of Ireland, and its islands and seas, constitutes the national territory of the nation-state of Ireland.
“Article 3.1: It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.”
This article however qualifies the implied national territory of the nation-state of Ireland by restricting its jurisdiction to the 26 Cos.
“Article 3.2: Institutions with executive powers and functions that are shared between those jurisdictions may be established by their respective responsible authorities for stated purposes and may exercise powers and functions in respect of all or any part of the island.”
However this allows the likes of Foras na Gaeilge and others to exercise functions across the island of Ireland where agreement is made which suggests a right to jurisdictional control over and above the restrictions placed in 3.1. Which again implies that the island of Ireland forms the national territory of the nation-state of Ireland, regardless of other jurisdictional considerations. And nowhere is “Northern Ireland” mentioned nor could it be.
The reality of de facto joint sovereignty over the north-east, by Nationalists and Unionists from within, and the Irish and British states from without, is the biggest ambiguity at the heart of the Belfast Agreement. It effects the littlest of things, such as the ccTLD or internet country code for “Northern Ireland”. The code is (officially) “.ie” or “.uk”. There is no “.ni”. The region is recognised by ICANN and IEDR as lying within the “.ie” definition. That is within the nation-state of Ireland. However the “.uk” internet address is also recognised and can be registered too.
Republican though I am, as anxious for the reunification of the national territory as I am, I see no problem living with such ambiguous shared spaces in the short to medium term as we work towards the reintegration of north and south.
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Perhaps you could refer me to where in The Agreement it uses any other term for this part of the world, I count more than 100 references to Northern Ireland and none to many other term – and look whose signature is at the bottom and who endorsed it in a Referendum? There are none so blind as those who will not see….
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By the Agreement I presume you refer to the bilateral international treaty between the nations of Ireland and Britain since the separate multi-party Belfast Agreement was not signed by anyone?
Again, the use of the term “Northern Ireland” does not confer legal significance under Irish domestic law as you seem to believe. It does not mean that the Irish state recognises that the north-east of Ireland is officially called “Northern Ireland” and that term alone must be used. Ireland uses the term out of convenience in most contexts as part of a behind-the-scenes understanding with the UK. This is touched upon in Austen Morgan’s pro-Unionist study of the legal aspects of the Peace Process, “THE BELFAST AGREEMENT, A practical legal analysis” (pub. 2000).
As an example take the legal names of the two respective nation-states, Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. As Morgan points out:
“24.28 The two contracting states now use each other’s names (the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Ireland) – but only in the title of treaties, as part of practice in international law. They still have a United Kingdom version, and an Irish version, the only difference being the order of names. This has made no change to the domestic, United Kingdom, law name: the Republic of Ireland. Nor has the Irish-law name – Éire/Ireland – or the description, the Republic of Ireland, altered in that separate legal system, though the term government of Ireland has been used with renewed vigour by the Irish state since the end of the territorial claim.
24.29 However, while the United Kingdom has scrupulously used Ireland, and even tried to surreptitiously change its domestic law, the Irish state has not been so punctilious. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has been used only in the title of the BIA (and the four supplementary agreements of 8 March 1999). It was not used within the text of the BIA (United Kingdom was
changed to British in article 3(1)), nor in the MPA: paragraph 5 of the Declaration of Support and paragraph 2 of Constitutional Issues. Nor has it been used in domestic Irish law.”
Just because both nations use certain titles or descriptions either in treaty, agreements, understandings or as a mere informality, it does not imply any legal standing in either nation. The term “Northern Ireland” falls into the same category. The actual Belfast Multi-Party Agreement makes use of the term “North” in several places, normally in conjunction with “South”. Does that imply acceptance by Unionists or the British of that nomenclature? Of course not.
Now take this from the Irish-British agreement where both states agree to:
“(v) affirm that whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, the power of the sovereign government with jurisdiction there shall be exercised with rigorous impartiality on behalf of all the people in the diversity of their identities and traditions and shall be founded on the principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil, political, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos and aspirations of both communities;
(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.”
I’m sorry but the British state clearly signed away an exclusively British statelet in the north-east of Ireland over a decade ago. Irishness has been accepted, and legally so.
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Basically – at the end of the day – the agreement stated that NI was part of the UK, but that this could by changed if a referendum showed a majority to join Dublin.
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No-one is discussing sovereignty we were discussing the name – but nice if unsuccessful attempt to change the subject!
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The term NI is more widely used now then ever; the census revealed its popularity and the Dubin media and government now use it routinely. An established name now.
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Peter, c’mon, I was dealing with the subject in the fullest manner possible. You claimed that one should use “the correct term of Northern Ireland” and not to do so was disrespectful or whatever. I pointed out, with proof, that from an Irish point of view there is no correct term for the north-eastern part of Ireland that is still under British Occupation. As Irish citizens we are perfectly free and justified in calling the region by whatever term we wish. Just as you have your right to call it what you wish or deem to be correct.
I also pointed to the wording of the agreements around the Peace Process and what the states of Ireland and Britain committed themselves to. Full equality for both national communities regardless of which state was in authority, including their national identities. Again this addresses the points you made.
You refer to some place called “Roy” (RoI). Where is that? The state you mean is named Ireland. Should I lecture you on the “correct term” of Ireland? Of course not. This is all just so irredeemably petty and pointless when bigger issues exist.
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OK Carrickally,
I’m finally sitting down, glass of wine in hand and two large steaks cooked on the BBQ and demolished. An answer to your points (edited) 🙂 in italics as follows paragraph by paragraph:
When I talk about OWC, I mean the football team representing Norn Iron, rather than any over-emphasis on the country, NI, belonging solely to me and my ilk. I am of course rather attached to the Ulster Banner. Whether NI of old was totally discredited is a discussion for another day. The football team, as I’m sure you know is associated with the unionist tradition. We all know about the bullets in the post sent to catholic players and the sectarian abuse suffered. What is the Ulster Banner? I think you may be referring to the old Stormont standard? As for that regimes reputation, yep, let’s leave that for another day.
Integrated housing contracts etc can and should work in areas such as Titanic Quarter (or perhaps the current UUJ site when it is given over) but will require real goodwill and careful management – it would also be nice if it involved real houses rather than bloody apartments! Agreed! However wouldn’t it be nice if nobody gave a tinkers curse what version of the Bible or Quran or even what newspaper their neighbours read?
The striving for integration in education seems to stumble though on the rocks of Catholicism. In my opinion again, I feel that nationalism in NI was in a cold house and that it was happy to cling to those cultural markers of its Irishness; the Church (and by extension the school) and the GAA.
Ok, big subject here. I believe in choice regarding education. I would suggest you do some research on the importance of education to Irish people. It was a privilege denied for a long, long time by successive British administrations in occupied Ireland. In fact it was only provided by the catholic church for over 200 years including hedge schools and the efforts of the religious orders such as the Christian Brothers. There was no alternative. I am not suggesting that it should continue that way but it is not the problem. It is a symptom of the problem. Segregated schools will no longer be there when parents see no need for them. Incidentally, I am sure you are aware of the academic results from both sectors. You are a parent and if religious ethos was not a factor…….well I’m sure you follow my point.
Flags; either both or none. An interesting point, perhaps Switzerland has an answer somewhere. Could we have missed a trick in the reform of local government and we could have had six county councils (maybe one for greater Belfast too?) with their own agreed flags? All, of course, under our great and in future more federal, mother-flag representing the three historic kingdoms on these islands.
Agreed ! Of course you are referring to the Flag representing Nationalist, Unionist and Dissenter traditions.
I’ve already spoken of my feelings that RoI is very much a good neighbour these days and that it is disrespectful to burn the flag of that nation
Ok, here’s the nub of the problem. I wrote of the tricolour not as my flag, being a neighbour but as the flag of my fellow citizens. It is the flag of HERE! That I think is the bit that unionists don’t get. We can argue semantics till dawn and back but until unionism accepts that fact they won’t actually get it. Now try viewing the City Hall antics through that pair of “green tinted”glasses?
You then go on to respect; it’s time for it to be mutual. Ask what respect you want from Unionism and then what respect Unionism asks from Nationalism. See if there is a middle ground and work on it.
Agreed.
Again the lesson of history is that the republicans who come to an arrangement are replaced by those who believe they have turned their backs on the big prize.
Also Agreed. First thing on the agenda being the split etc…..
Which is why the “not an inch” attitude of some unionists facilitates the factionalism evident within nationalism. The surprise is how limited that splintering has been. I’d remind you of the old story of the 2 Presbyterians on an Island. They managed to build 3 Churches. When rescued they were naturally asked why they felt the need for three churches.
Adopting my best Ballymena accent, the reply was, I’d not be seen dead in his and He’d not set foot in mine but no way could either of us set our face back home if we were seen in that one.
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Amazing how much we can agree on, and how much we slightly disagree on. Of course there are massive chasms based on our world-views.
I’d love you to do a blog on religious education in NI, maybe a future topic?
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Good luck to those unionists who post on here or maybe just read the blog.
Don’t know if “Happy 12th” is the right term.
Been doing a rain dance all day and i don’t mean that in a derogatory way.
Feel as though i’m living in an oven.
Remember to wear your sun cream on the 12th.
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I get it on the flag – that it is your flag not as it is to me RoI’s flag – what I don’t get is why that means you have the right to demand that it be flown any more than the Jamaican flag should be flown in Brixton, the Pakistani flag flown in Bradford or the Turkish flag flown in Finsbury just because people live there who have allegiance to it whilst being residents of part of the UK?
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Poor effort unless you are suggesting all the Irish immigrated to British Ulster at some point, so not really the same thing now is it?
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There are those post on this site who apparently believe that the Celts originated here but I’ll accept not a perfect analogy – let’s take one that is more appropriate – native Americans (rather than Mexicans) and I’ll ask the question what difference does the length of time you have lived here make (I’ll nominate Bangordub for that one given his comments above)? It’s not a totally facetious point….
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PS If I don’t reply until tomorrow you’ll understand I’m off to get a farmers tan in a short sleeved short for the next 10 hours!
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@ Peter – As to the Native American example, native Americans generally have their own courts, elections, and school systems as distinct from American ones, and get federal funding for housing, health, and instruction in their languages. They generally fly their flags alongside American flags within the boundaries of their territories, which are designated in U.S. law as “sovereign nations.” You would have an extremely difficult time finding anyone in the United States who objects to any of this.
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@Peter,
The Irish community in the North of Ireland has the right to fly the national flag of Ireland because the government and nation-state of Britain which is the Occupying Power in the region implicitly signed away their right to refuse any such a display as part of the intraregional and international accords surrounding the Peace Process of the late 1990s. It is as simple as that.
If you are genuinely vexed by that then perhaps instead of attacking Irish citizens in the north-east of Ireland for expressing their national identity you should be tackling the political leaders of your community who misled you and other members of the British Unionist population into believing that the Peace accords meant other than they did.?
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Specific reference in The Agreement or other document please – and I am well aware that the leadership of the UUP was at best economical with the truth about the contents of The Agreement which is why I was so opposed to the leadership’s position on it….at least the party has got its comeuppance!
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Peter,
If loyalists insist on burning my flag, can you please explain why or on what basis they are demanding respect for their own?
Reverse the situation. What would you think?
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They are burning the flag that protestors wave at them and that adorned the coffins of the IRA men killed while murdering their kith and kin despite as pointed out by the speeches today the orange third supposedly representing them, how can you demand that it be respecte3d (a question asked on another thread and as yet unanswered)?
Why should they show it respect? We are as usual as bad as each other – I don’t agree with the burning of flags but no flag in this discussion is without political baggage..
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I’ve done my lay-out for tomorrow; linen trousers, talc ready, magicool bottle on standby, water in the freezer. Extra pair of socks and cacks for the halfway change.
Must remember the suncream!
To those who are out and about tomorrow, enjoy. To those at home or (horror of horrors!) at work, I trust you’ll be able to put the day in with as much sunbathing as possible.
Stay safe, folks and just be thankful King Billy saved you from brass money and (ironically) wooden shoes.
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Carrickally,
We’d all love a picture I’m sure! 😉 Have fun
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Well,
Tonight we have what will make tomorrow’s headlines. Police attacked, rioting, playing of offensive songs outside churches yet again (see my grounhog day blog) , water cannon deployed, provocative speeches by supposed leaders (along the lines of the parades commission must be disobeyed although we are upholders of the rule of law- don’t start me). It’s only 8pm.
Carrickally, I truly wish tomorrows headlines would be about the day you were obviously looking forward to. Surely it is time for somebody within Orangeism to take a lead here?
Peter, I don’t burn your flag nor would I justify or condone it. I prefer conversation and intelligent discussion. I could happily list wrongs done under the cloak of that flag.That is the difference. That is my point.
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Bangordub
North Belfast is deja vu with the usual rent a mob just with Landrovers pointing in the opposite direction and the Parades Commission deciding for reasons best known only to themselves which way they point – if we could sort out Ardoyne and one band at St Patricks the rest seems to have passed off almost without incident – even the City of Culture and Rasharkin (I don’t accept that The Sash is offensive but is still shouldn’t have been played but I suspect that no action will be taken by the Commission or more disappointingly by the Order who should be self policing that issue). I have only read the press reports about the speeches but I didn’t see what was provocative – although Mervyn Gibson’s justification for St Partricks was disappointing both as a Presbyterian and an Orangeman. Check out the Newsletter video links to the rural parades and you’ll see how it should be done (and how I and my family and thousands of other did it).
As for flags for your flag to be treated with respect you have to ensure you treat it with respect – 2 wrongs don’t make a right but only dealing with 1 of the wrongs only solves half the problem.
I’m away to put on some after sun and soak my weary feet…
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Peter, 😉
My point exactly. can’t disagree with much of that. Particularly “more disappointingly by the Order who should be self policing that issue”.
Hope you enjoyed the day on a personal level.
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Carrickally, I truly wish tomorrows headlines would be about the day you were obviously looking forward to. Surely it is time for somebody within Orangeism to take a lead here?
Phew, it was quite a day personally. I don’t think doing it chronologically would do it justice so I’ll just fire straight into the juicy bit.
We were stopped at Middlepath St for longer than usual, which isn’t a good sign. Was talking to two groups of tourists from England (the first three young lads were entering the spirit of things with a can in hand), the older couple were in McHugh’s and when our District stopped, they came out to walk along from the tail to near the head, where we were.
As we rounded to the bottom of the N’Ards Rd, we could see the bottles flying in both directions towards the houses in Pitt Park and SS. As we got closer to the point we passed on word to watch heads and got our string-boys into the taxi and then tried to get it through. However, by this point we were concertina-d and trapped in an open area near the chapel, between trees and in a nice target zone.
I went over to the police lines and told them that we were trapped, realised by the flashes they were mainland police and tried to explain that what was in danger of happening was a crush like a a football match, reasoning that they would have policed something like that before rather than what they were being asked to do yesterday. They said they would pass it up the chain of command but I headed over to a sergeant next who admitted he was there as cannon fodder.
I told him that us, our band, the following band and lodge were the real cannon fodder as we were trapped and had no helmets or shields and that he needed to get the message through to clear the area in SS where the barrages were coming from.
Now, I’m not going to enter into the whole “themmuns and usuns” debate, I don’t know who threw first, I know that both sides were throwing, crowds around me and invisible others in SS. I know that I tried to get the police to take action rather than stand in shelter while we were being pelted and I believe that there was some preparation going into the missiles – I saw bandsmen splattered from SS paintbombs, I heard later there were petrol bombs from loyalists and these things don’t just come to hand, whereas bottles do.
Long and short, we managed to get moving again, I got home and then it was a case of watching what was going on elsewhere.
When it comes to someone in Orangeism taking the lead, our own district had discussions about what to do, involving some hairbrained schemes along the lines of the Drumcree crises. Fortunately, wiser heads prevailed and we finished our parade as we have always done, with the unfortunate added attack at the end. If there’s a job for the Unionist Forum, this is it.
As for the boring bits, the morning was hot; 20 degrees when I left the house at 7.15am, 26 by the time we hit the Dublin Rd at 11.30am. Plenty of water was taken, those who had spent the night out on the eleventh looked to be suffering and just when it seemed unbearable, our band arrived for the return leg of the parade (being a small lodge we don’t have the generation of funds to have a band for the full day so we engaged a country band who finish their parade earlier than us and then bussed it to Belfast).
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Nobody going to Scarva then.
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I gave my eldest the choice between driving to Scarva or walking to Carrick. Surprisingly (and disappointingly for me), Carrick won.
I’ll have to try harder next year, Scarva is a fantastic day out with a wide range of bands, well turned-out Blackmen and (being in the country) fewer drunks.
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Just back from Carrick. Scarva wins hands-down, I even tried the whole, “if we leave now, we can make it in time” line! Now I’ve got plenty of time to cut the grass!
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Depressingly familiar scenes from Belfast. I was out in Cork City last night, where people of every creed, colour and nationality were out enjoying the good weather. It felt like a European city in 2013 – it doesn’t seem as if things will ever be that way in Belfast.
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Pingback: Radio Silence | footballcliches
A couple of bonfires, a few fireworks and a parade.
What exactly is the Short Strand residents problem?
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A question that hopefully dialogue will answer. Although it does no good with “loyalists” attacking the police and the conclusions that will be drawn about a baying mob intent on murder.
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Carrickally,
I hope you realise i was joking in the remark about Short Strand.
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I did but the two poor suckers who gave you a thumbs down each didn’t!
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I wonder if this will be the year that the powers that be finally stop tip toeing around the Orange Order? This PSNI video (posted on the Newsletter site no less) doesn’t paint a particularly pretty picture.
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/video-psni-helicopter-footage-of-ardoyne-riot-1-5283281
Carrickally, you always come across on here as a thoughtful fellow but until the OO starts to actively distance itself from this sort of behaviour its difficult to see where its future lies.
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RJC
I suspect that there is very little the authorities can do – it is time for the moral majority (no laughing at the back there) in the Order to identify the extent of the problem within and the remove that cancer – it will be a smaller Order but it will better for it. I can’t remember where I saw it over the last few days but there has already been a reference to the quality control issue in the order’s admissions particularly it would appear in North & West Belfast where clearly not every member subscribes fully to the qualifications of a true member. Once that issue is dealt with and it appears to be numerically and geographically limited then we can turn our attention to regulating the “supporters” better…..
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Peter,
Well said.
I don’t mean to be dismissive but the rest of us have been saying this for a long long time. If it is finally dawning as an obvious imperative, great stuff.
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@Peter Brown
I hope that day will shortly come to pass, but while Mervyn Gibson continues to make regular references to ‘war’ in his speeches I wonder where this moral majority within the OO will come from? Whilst I may not agree with the Orange Order’s raison d’être, I would like to think that I would never judge individual members’ personal morality on the basis of their membership alone. I can’t help but feel that history may not be so kind to those who choose to define themselves as Orangemen.
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You’ve a number of choices if you live in Short Strand during the 11/12th of July.
You could go on holiday.
You could in theory stay indoors and watch the television.
Sounds okay but a bit limited on the 11th night with bonfires and fireworks going off.
Not to mention a number of visiting bands from across the North Channel let off the leesh.
So if you decide to stay you can forget an early night.
You could decide to join in the fun and cross the peace line.
Might help if you had access to a helicopter for safety reasons.
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Mervyn seems to have been off message this week with no-one else calling for mass protests but the Order is fighting (and currently losing) a war – its just a matter of who should be fighting it and how – now off to bed as in order to fulfil my qualifications I need to be t church in the morning
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So the annual Belfast anti catholic festival 2013 version passes into history.
Suppose we should all be grateful nobody was killed.
Although one MP had a close run thing.
Luckily nobody had to explain that one.
Still, everybody on here seems okay.
Carrickally and some of my relatives seem to have passed Short Strand unscathed.
Do my relatives fit into any boxes/patterns.
Socially and economically they could be called the underclass, loads of kids (no wedding ring) and no work.
And oh the state is paying for that caravan at Portrush on Monday.
Are they bigots?
Hmmm, well they aren’t the brightest lights on the Christmas tree.
Thing is, what does it say for our marching posters on here.
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This Orangeman is being overly nasty by avoiding the Presbyterian crowd this morning. I think the video images show some members getting, and I’m going to use a euphemism, “carried away with themselves.”
When I’m wearing a collarette, and even when I’m not, I try to be as good a person as I can be. If that means that I approach police lines when bottles are flying with nothing in my hands to ask the police to do something, it’s what I do. If it’s telling a racist to bugger off, that’s what I do. If it’s putting someone who has had too much to drink after a break in the field, that’s what I do.
No matter how angry I am at a decision, I have to try to set an example. I feel that Mervyn Gibson is walking a very fine line at the minute. He was instrumental in bringing the violence around the flags process in the East to an end, he has led efforts to eradicate drugs in EB recently and there’s only so far you push those two issues until you come up against the real bogeymen in this area.
I wonder if that has influenced his choice of words recently because, as PB says, he does seem “off-message.”
RJC, I only come across as a thoughtful fellow because I keep my mouth shut; “Better to keep it closed and have them think you’re an idiot than open it and allow that to be confirmed,” or words to that effect! In a way, if I was a younger man I may well have been one of those hot-heads. I certainly got myself worked up over football many moons ago and have the scars to prove it. That was never allowed to be the case in the Orange, even though Drumcree was on the roll at that same period in my life; the members of my lodge would never have tolerated it and when three of them are your closest male relatives, you don’t misbehave!
I wonder if there was a requirement for a demonstration of physical outrage placed upon those who partook in attacking the police by their immediate community? From the horror that is facebook I’ve seen the usual comments about “OO have no balls” and “always backing down” thrown about since the determination. That’s bound to put pressure on those who want to project an image of strength, even on a personal level as a “man.” Some places aren’t lucky enough to have a wise old head to guide them and so the mob wins.
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Carrickally, a wild man.
I don’t believe it.
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“What we’ve been makes us what we are.”
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Our deeds still travel with us from afar.
Makes me why anybody semi sane or older and wiser would want to caught up in a donnybrook at Short Strand or anywhere else for that matter.
Unless the DNA of Orangeism carries with it the mayhem gene.
Maybe i’m missing something.
Is reaction the parades provoke part of the fun?
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Yes, its the sole reason for the OO’s existence.
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Same comment different thread same lack of supporting evidence
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From today’s newsletter, a statement for the OO. A lot of it contains the usual hyperbole you’d expect from a partisan account. However, I’ve posted up some of it.
“A police land rover, believed to be gathering evidence for the Parades Commission, caused the parade to stop on several occasions as it progressed along the Newtownards Road.
“Attempts to contact senior police officers by several community representatives to have the matter resolved quickly, failed as PSNI phones were not answered.
“At this stage there was a premeditated and sustained attack on the parade from the Short Strand area. Paint bombs, stones and bottles rained down on the participants and spectators, many were injured several of them requiring hospital treatment, one young bands women has a suspected fractured cheekbone; another female received 10 stitches to a leg wound; a full list of casualties is being collated.
“The onslaught left young children and many spectators traumatised.
“Considerable damage was also caused to banners and band uniforms as the parade returned home through what had become a riot. The riot was clearly the responsibility of those from the Short Strand who attacked the parade and its supporters.”
The Orange Order in Belfast also insisted that peaceful protests were held at Twaddell Avenue, Carlisle Circus, Hesketh Road, Ballygomartin Road, Flax Street, Clifton Park Avenue and the Albertbridge Road.”
The Order also went on to said that a number of parades were attacked on July 12.
“Ballynafeigh District were attacked with eggs and bottles in the morning at Agincourt Avenue as they made there way to join the main parade. Two young girls and two band members were hit with missiles. The police protection normally present at this location was absent.
“Sandy Row District was attacked with missiles from Peter’s Hill as they paraded along the Shankill Road in the morning on route to Carlisle Circus. One member was injured.
“Lodges at Lancaster Street, York Street junction were attacked by Nationalists throwing bricks and bottles on two occasions, one bandsman was injured. Hand to hand fighting was taking place as those on parade defended themselves before police arrived.”
The Order said it felt that the PSNI has “serious questions to answer”.
“Not least, with so many police officers available, why were they unable to stop clearly orchestrated attacks; and in the case of the Short Strand, a prolonged attack lasting over 30 minutes along the length of the Peace Wall,” the statement said.”
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Begs the question – why do they insist on a return parade past the Short Strand?
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FF They are in a unionist area on the other side of a peace wall (sic) from the Short Strand – one which is clearly not high enough – on the only route back into East Belfast from the city centre. Let’s be realistic what is your alternative particularly bearing in mind that I understand it is accepted that the SS was the source of the trouble on this occasion as this point?
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FF, any chance of condemnation for the attack? It seems that the body of evidence gathering is that I was the subject of an attack from SS by sectarian thugs.
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If they can’t behave themselves walking past St Matthews’ they should be banned from doing it – end of.
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CA,
There’s a video doing the rounds (see LAD on FB) of the Twelfth ‘celebrations’ outside St Matthews’ – a disgusting display of bigotry and thuggery. They should not be allowed anywhere near that church. They insult the parishioners there with their bigoted antics year in, year out.
I suppose you were doing an Arsene Wenger.
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I’m surprised the “Newsletter” doesn’t mention this blog.
If BD is right about British Goverment figures then events around the 12th will only get worse.
Hold a big three day event with has anti Catholicism as its main thread in a city that grows more catholic by the day.
Stand by and watch fuse burn.
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Which British Government figures are these?
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Ok, taking up some points above does it boil down to a simple thing for the Orange Order? Carrickally makes some good points above regarding behaviour and actions. Points I would have no issues with. Unfortunately we have multiple images of members of the Order engaging actively in criminal activity.
I will be interested to see if internal disciplinary measures are taken in respect of them attacking the PSNI as indeed they were for the crime of attending a PSNI officers funeral in a Catholic Church?
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Two relevant articles:
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/grieving-for-a-lost-supremacism/#more-3808
Both of which I would absolutely agree with
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What will happen to the loyalists next?
It will fizzle out. Appallingly led loyalists will be abandoned by men in suits who incited them and then retired to surburbanville. They will be in court, convicted and abandoned. As usual. They will not realise that their slogans of following, no surrender, and loyalty are only applied to the cannon fodder, not to their officer class.
The same “officer class” will come after their votes next election time.
That’s why I’m a Republican.
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Me too although the other charges to which you refer we’re (correctly) dismissed. Presumably SF will not be discipline Gerry Kelly though ;-p
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BD
Any members of the OO involved in criminal activity should be subject to the full force of the law and, if found guilty, expelled. That shouldn’t be up for debate.
I’d expect the video footage to be pretty good for indentification purposes.
PB makes a good point about another landrover-surfer. I wonder has he been up before a judge yet for the Crown to prove he was obstructing the PSNI?
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Enda
British Goverment Census figures showing the numbers of Catholics growing.
Still trying to figure why any Orangeman would get upset by events at Short Strand.
What did they think was going to happen.
Maybe they thought the locals would come out waving and blowing kisses.
Here’s a small enclave in an area with serious and recent history.
Luckily there nobody killed tbh.
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Marching the streets in military formation dressed as toy soldiers to celebrate victory over your neighbours while passing their homes and churches is only ever going to cause division and bitterness no matter how you dress it up.
The residents affected by these parades should be given final say over who has a right to march past ther homes. We’re talking about residential areas where most of the agro takes place not city or town centres. No consent no parade that should be the law. They’re the ones who have to live with the consequences. Ask Catholics in the next nilt poll and im sure the vast majorty would agree and im sure many protestants also.
Would an OO equivalent anti jewish/black organisation be allowed to march through Jewish or black neighbourhoods in Britain?
Its time the British government did more and not wash their hands any longer and no better time than after the last few days. The SDLP claim sitting at westminster is relevant and should prove it by pushing for the legislation required.
The parades commission is just a sticking plaster and I agree with orangemen when they say whoever threatens the most violence or wherever violence will be most likely gets rewarded which is probably why so few marches are subject to restrictions. Also make them pay for thr policing and clean up operations and that will surely knock some sense into them.
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“CA,
There’s a video doing the rounds (see LAD on FB) of the Twelfth ‘celebrations’ outside St Matthews’ – a disgusting display of bigotry and thuggery. They should not be allowed anywhere near that church. They insult the parishioners there with their bigoted antics year in, year out.”
I’d advise you to take yourself up to the chapel in Ballyhackamore when the Somme Anniversary parade goes past. You’ll see it treated just the same as every other building along the route.
St Matthews, contrary to what you might presume, is not the only place in the 14mile route on the Twelfth where the Sash is played.
“I suppose you were doing an Arsene Wenger.”
There’s only one person with the mote in their eye. Any condemnation yet for the attack on the parade from SS?
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You got your big march past St Matthews’ in the morning, band after band belting out the Sash and other anti-Catholic tunes. You then feign surprise when a few bottles are thrown as you repeat the stunt in the evening, this time accompanied by hundreds of boozed-up loyalists, intent on trouble, and who subsequently attacked the police.
I think your hate parade got what was coming to it – though I’d preferred to have seen the police go in a bit harder.
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FF “I think your hate parade got what was coming to it”
Thanks for that. I think we can take that as an acceptance of you not only refusing to condemn the attack on me but also you condoning violence from republicans against your fellow citizens.
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Link to the above mentioned video:
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Great video footage BD, the first band in particular was playing and marching extremely well. The level of musicianship was much higher than in the latter two.
Three bands out of 80 playing the Sash “outside” or “passing” St Patricks. How many times do you think those same three bands and the others played that particular tune during the day?
You’ll notice that the stops were not deliberately by the bands, the parade ahead can be seen stopping. Also, the third band had actually finished with the Sash by the time they got to Donegall St.
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BD,
That’s not the video I was referring to. If you check out the Loyalists Against Demacracy (note mis-spelling) there’s a link to a video of the scenes outside St Matthews’ on the Twelfth. 8 minutes of loyalist ‘culture’ and violence – filmed by one of the crowd.
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Ally,
If you can provide me with a convincing reason why your intolerant and intolerable anti-Catholic parade should be allowed to pass by St Matthews’, not once but twice in the same day, I’ll condemn those youths who stoned it.
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Setting preconditions, FF? It’s simple; condemn violence or don’t.
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ffs give it a rest Carrick. None does condemnation better than unionists happy now?
I take it you’ll be helping the police and giving them the names of anyone you suspect of disorderly behaviour?
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Ally,
Why would you expect Short Strand Catholics to tolerate your organisation’s intolerable intolerance towards them? I certainly wouldn’t.
But sure it’s all a bit of harmless fun, eh!? High spirits!? Nothing to do with the Order!
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Think the Parades Commission might need to look at places like Short Strand.
Would it be the end of the world if these parades were rerouted for the return session.
Maybe they could be bused back to East Belfast.
This can’t go on year after year.
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Sorry PT but there is no reason at all why the chapel cannot be respected and the march also respected. At no stage does any parade enter the Short Strand area. The houses on the lower Newtownards Rd opposite the chapel are occupied by what I presume to be Protestants but certainly Unionists judging by the flags flying above their grilled windows – think about that fact.
You’re right that this cannot go on year after year. I’ve spoken on here about tolerance, dialogue and understanding. There is one person in particular who let himself down badly for saying that the parade I was part of deserved to be attacked. I dread to think if his brain slips into the same gear when talking about victims of rape.
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Yes, Ally, the Orange mob attempting to storm St Matthews’ on the evening of the Twelfth were just like rape victims.
What planet do you inhabit?
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Preview of Ross Kemps extreme world https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=180214415489488&set=vb.173359116178247&type=2&theater
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Sooner or later the powers that be will have to bite the bullet and ban the return parade. This sectarian charade cannot continue.
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http://telly.com/Z0L5D0
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POINT OF ORDER:
Some recent comments made their way directly to the spam folder on the blog server. Thus I did not see them. Sammy McNally made me aware of this. I have now approved all the comments affected. Apologies to those affected. BD
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Anewdawn, I’ve been in contact with my local MLA who is raising the issues with the Chair of the policing Board. Thanks for your concern but quite simply I will not give this issue a rest. It’s as simple as this; you either abhor violence or you don’t. You either condemn violence out of hand, no matter how angry you are, or you make up excuses for the actions of loons and drunkards attacking people of any or no faith, those doing their public duty.
FF’s language is as intemperate as the great and the good are accusing Mervyn Gibson of being. I’m happy to call him out as an apologist for republican violence because his comments on this threads and others show clearly his bigotry.
Is no-one else prepared to comment on the bands “outside” St Patrick’s in the video that BD very kindly posted up? Is no-one else prepared to stand up and say that violent attacks on any member of the community in Northern Ireland/Ireland/wherever you believe this place is, is wrong?
If not, then there’s a hell of a lot of reflection required from those who believe that they can live in a shared future with Catholic, Protestant or Dissenter (not to mention all our newcomers of many religions and none).
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Do you get the same thrill from leading a drunken rabble past the chapel at Short Strand as you did from taking on the rival team’s ‘firm’ in your football hooligan days – or is it bigger and better? ‘Respectable’ even?
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I thought it was a baying Orange mob attempting to storm St Matthew’s, FF, not a drunken rabble going past the chapel.
Which one is it? Or could it be that you’re just falling into the trap of the intolerance you’ve tried to foist on others?
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“you either abhor violence or you don’t”
Obviously you don’t or you wouldn’t be commemorating the battle of the Boyne & Somme or glorifying what many would view as British terror in Ireland.
If thats not bad enough the organisation you belong to then insist on taking these beliefs through mainly Catholic areas and past their homes with total disregard to the feelings of the residents affected with loyalists coming from as far away as Scotland. No consent no parade how can you argue with that?
If you can’t march in the Ardoyne you could make up for it by having an extra fifty parades on the Shankill among those who would welcome your presence. Rather than reject change the OO should embrace it and look to the future. If not we’ll have to go this again and again and in the end the OO will have more to lose than gain. You’re only fooling yourselves.
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Where is there a parade in East Belfast through a mainly Catholic area?
I’ve said before I’d be quite happy for the OO to hold open, honest and frank discussions with residents in areas where there are issues, or even better in the case of St Patricks where there are no residents, with the parishoners of the church. As a matter of fact that was offered and refused after pressure exerted by Dempsey.
The OO is embracing change and looking to the future, a shared future. That’s more than can be said from the intolerants who run the full length of Gt Patrick St, from North Queen St to York St, to attack a parade. No houses there, just republican intolerance. From the photo in the Irish News on Monday (p3, I think), you can make out a figure who has been involved in attacks previously. Eventually the news broadcasters will join the dots, the Irish News are nearly there already.
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So there are no houses in Lancaster St? And Catholics don’t take offence at Orange trash insulting their religion – but republicans do?
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Check it out Mr Intolerant
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Why are you addressing yourself, FF?
I’ve seen the video a few days ago, it’s absolutely abhorrent. This took place maybe an hour after I talked to probably the very same officers who are subject to a sustained barrage. It is disgraceful and all I can do is applaud the personal bravery of those officers who, in their own words, were “cannon fodder.”
Do you openly condemn that violence, that comes from a different section of the community from your own? Surprisingly, that wouldn’t make you a bigot in my eyes, simply a person who is striving to support the PSNI and their mainland colleagues in the difficult job that they have to do and are continuing to do.
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Lads,
Can we keep it civil please 😉
This isn’t that other site………………
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Carrickally,
You mention ‘republican intolerance’.
Do you think it is only republicans that might be upset by anti catholic events.
Do you think SDLP voters are not bothered by bonfires, parades etc on their doorstep.
How would you react if it was the other way round.
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Todays latest,
The OO want another parade along the Crumlin Rd. That’s Leadership lads.
Unbelievable. I am afraid the lunatics have taken over the asylum.
Unfortunately they are merely confirming what many already know. They are patently unfit to lead an elephant into a circus ring.
Perhaps Carrickally should stand for the leadership? At least he talks sense (sometimes 😉 )
Do they have any concept of the damage they are doing to their cause both here and internationally?
Do they have any clue about how they are expending any goodwill they may have had?
Do they realise the intransigence of the Belfast branch is actually harming the progress made in Derry and other areas?
Do they recognise that they are now being disowned by their former natural sympathisers?
Can they see that they are now seen as aligned with, shall we say, the less salubrious residents of North and East Belfast?
Carrickally, You can have a go at me point by point.
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BD,
“The OO want another parade along the Crumlin Rd. That’s Leadership lads.
Unbelievable. I am afraid the lunatics have taken over the asylum.
Unfortunately they are merely confirming what many already know. They are patently unfit to lead an elephant into a circus ring.
Perhaps Carrickally should stand for the leadership? At least he talks sense (sometimes )
Do they have any concept of the damage they are doing to their cause both here and internationally?
Do they have any clue about how they are expending any goodwill they may have had?
Do they realise the intransigence of the Belfast branch is actually harming the progress made in Derry and other areas?
Do they recognise that they are now being disowned by their former natural sympathisers?
Can they see that they are now seen as aligned with, shall we say, the less salubrious residents of North and East Belfast?
Carrickally, You can have a go at me point by point”
Not sure if it’s another parade or an attempt to finish the first one. Either way, the OO need to take it off the streets now. As you say, it’s doing massive damage to the cause by having it associated with violence. A bit like republicanism will probably never reach out to Unionism or convert us misguided Irishmen for the very same reason.
The goodwill that was built-up, and I believe it was there, is being destroyed amongst those who are not in daily contact with the Orange. I believe the goodwill will be maintained in rural communities where there is an interdependence and perhaps even a respect that is missing in Belfast. That leads on to the intransigence. There is a widespread belief that Ormeau, Whiterock, Whitewell, Ardoyne will be followed by Donegall St, York St, N’Ards Road, Albertbridge Road. That needs to be addressed in an agreed move between the key principals in this act, DUP and SF acting on behalf of the OO and residents. In my mind there would be an agreement that in Belfast places of worship should be respected and therefore an agreed set of hymn tunes be in place. Abide with Me would be a nice touch, I think – even for those who are not religious and don’t believe in God, the idea of stay or even live with me would represent a statement of intent.
I’m not sure who the natural sympathisers with the OO are you are talking about? If it’s the likes of Basil and his new mob, quite simply they are Alliance in slightly more red white and blue socks. There is undoubtably a swell of resentment at what Mike Nesbitt called the chip, chip, chipping across the lumpen proletariat and and the middle class swanks.
I think I’ve covered every point bar me in leadership. Anyone who seeks it doesn’t deserve it!
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They simply don’t care. And nor do Dodds and McCausland. What little power they have is based on playing to people’s worst fears.
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That is why the likes of decent members like Carrickally are being tainted with that brush. I have offered to spake my piece directly.
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PT
“You mention ‘republican intolerance’.
Do you think it is only republicans that might be upset by anti catholic events.
Do you think SDLP voters are not bothered by bonfires, parades etc on their doorstep.
How would you react if it was the other way round.”
Thanks for your points, I felt over the last day or so that I was getting dragged into a personal mudslinging match. I say republican intolerance because the SS is not known as a nationalist area, rather a hardcore republican one.
I’d say that not only nationalists but also republicans are upset by anti-catholic events which is why I believe that talking to the parishioners at St Patricks was a correct step last year and found it hard to believe that the parish priest was talked out of it by the local version of the brigadier, Dempsey.
I would imagine that many of the residents of Balmoral Ave for example are SDLP voters. In that vein, I believe that the efforts to cut down on on-street drinking and the provision of portaloos on that area of the route will have helped with concerns that they may have had but have not raised. I would trust that the behaviour of supporters there is now such that there would be minimal issues and that these would relate to litter – I was at Tyrella today and can confirm it’s not just Prods that throw crap on the ground.
How would I react if it were the other way around, you ask. A pertinent point that I feel could lead to my response sounding like a full-scale outbreak of “whataboutery” but you’ll have to bear with me. I was born during the Troubles, I’ve seen a lot more to trouble me than bonfires and parades. That’s not meant to play down on sensibilities or make it sound like I have some higher claim so I won’t even follow it with a, “but.”
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but if you really want to see an offensive parade go to the one in Castlederg on 11th August…
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but I’ll pick up the baton from there – if you really want to see an offensive parade go to Castlederg on 11th August
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The only reason I would be anywhere near Castlederg is on my way to Donegal to escape the Twelfth. It’s funny how some unionists think the right to march should only apply to unionists.
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I didn’t deny the right to march I’m merely pointing out that mainstream republicans are total hypocrites – their marches are even more offensive than anything the loyal orders have been accused of. But don’ let that stop you trying to completely change the subject when the facts don’t suit you FF
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There’s something key that Ally and his brethern just don’t seem to appreciate- and I must say I think this is deliberate on their part. It’s quite simple and this is it.
We do tolerate your parades – hundreds of them, thousands of them even. It’s long past time you said thanks.
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Thanks.
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Ally, many many people, including myself, find the Orange Order and what it represents but there are very very few people who would advocate an outright ban on Orange parades, in fact I’ve never heard anyone advocate that. Such a stance would be totalitarian. But 500 parades on the Twelfth, 3000 during the course of the marching season – how can you complain of intolerance and expect to be taken seriously!?
Additionally, we’ve heard Orange leaders washing their hand of violence that occurs at their contentious parades, claiming that it’s the ‘inevitable’ result of someParades Commission determination. Yet you’ll never hear them contemplate the idea that violence might be the inevitable consequence of organising ‘return parades’, replete with kick the pope bands and pissed-up hangers-on, in interface areas. Why the double-standard?
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many people find the Orange Order objectionable, I meant to say
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Thanks
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Another example of unionists and their love of condemnation today. http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/sectarian-chanting-at-cliftonville-celtic-clash-1-5295068
They just can’t themselves with the WATP better than everyone else attitude that they have to try and tarnish one of the best nights in the clubs history.
Didn’t here any such calls from the usual suspects the last time Linfield visited Dublin. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9tatN3UTJk
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They can only have been watching in order to be offended!
I watched most of the match and didn’t hear any sectarian chanting. Who was it meant to be aimed at it anyway?
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I watched the match in a Bangor pub with a mixed crowd. The banter was 1st class and the pints were good. Everyone enjoyed it and there were no rows.
Now, why can the OO not manage that?
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mixed crowd BangDub, what Celtic fans and Cliftonville fans, dangerous.
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What do people in Bangor row about? your coy carp shat on my tennis shoes?
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That’s the way the press and politcians work in Northern Ireland. Every time a loyalist cat gets stuck up a tree the Republican press and politicans go tut tut tut and everytime a republican cat gets stuck up a tree the unionist press and politicians go tut tut tut.
I hate Linfield but I remember they played Shelbourne in Dublin about 3 years back and took 800 fans. 4 of these fans got blocked and fought amongst themselves (it was supposed to be an in-law-out law family argument) and got lifted by the Irish police. What did the Irish News do, it put them on the front page with the headline ‘trouble at Linfield game in Dublin’. Laughable. Linfield actually called the Irish News out on it and there wasn’t a peep from the Irish News against Linfield for quite some time.
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Of course when the residents of the Short Strand are taunted by a parade they can’t even see they are entitled to launch missiles over the peace line at it – when football fans sing if you hate the Orange b******* clap your hands and pro IRA songs it simply didn’t happen then we are all imagining it (unless of course Linfield, Rangers or Northern Ireland fans do it when it actually did happen)…
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Fancy calling Orangemen bastards after they go on the rampage!?
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Well I suppose it was a little naive to expect you to condemn it FF – I assume that it was only aimed at members of the Orange Order in the same way that the Fenian blood in the Billy Boys is about the 19th century uprising – or are you wearing your green tinted spectacles again?
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Were you at Solitude the other night wearing your sash, Peter?
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No the BBC kindly (ab)used my licence fee to beam it right into my home – I expect a similar level of coverage to the Twelfth complaints (or maybe not)
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The problem with the Twelfth coverage is that it provides a sanitised view of events.
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Celtic supporters now reported to be singing songs about the murder of Lee Rigby at their pre season friendly with Brentford – what a lovely bunch of lads, presumably there is some one from the Orange Order provoking this….or maybe everyone is imagining this too?
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Quite possibly, Peter. Did you consult a crystal ball in your eagerness to be offended?
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No in break with tradition instead of travelling across the country to be offended in person I stayed away although according to your logic if I had travelled I could have attacked them for their disrespect….
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Bussed in to be offended. Outraged at something Scottish football supporters are alleged to have done in England.
Make your mind up, Peter.
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It is offensive, even to a lot of Celtic fans too I’d imagine.
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Of course its offensive, but no more offensive than Liverpool fans singing songs about the Munich air disaster at Man Utd games or Chelsea fans waving wads of money at Liverpool fans. Certain sections of football supporters will always behave like idiots but I don’t see what this has to do with the Orange Order.
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It has nothing to do with Ireland, let alone the Orange Order. Just Peter clutching at sectarian straws.
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Peter,
Re the allegations about the Celtic fans I suggest you read these:
http://celticjournal.org/2376/nasty-rumour-sees-celtic-fans-accused-of-more-wrong-doing/?
Incidentally, what was your source?
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The Celtic fans on Twitter who have confirmed that some of their fellow fans were doing so in at least one local pub before the game (not the one who didn’t even go but apparently is still able to deny it (apparently he says Gerry was never in PIRA as well)
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Hold the front page! Apart from yourself and Gregory Campbell, who gives a proverbial toss!?
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Ah, Twitter.
That’s OK then, I’m convinced, naturally the photo’s and videos will be available shortly on the interweb? Much like the recent Belfast, ahem, parades.
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Orangeman in ‘I hate Glasgow Celtic and am prepared to believe any oul sectarian shite about its fans’ shocker. It wasn’t Celtic fans who went on the rampage last week, Peter – it was Orangemen. 0/10 for whataboutery.
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Actually if you Google it you will see Celtic fans confirm it and condemn it – I am not condoning Orangemen attacking the police I am merely pointing out that FF in particular at least implies that the Orange Order can have no complaints about its parades coming under attack from Short Strand because of the actions of a small minority of its members, some of those actions taking place many miles from Short Strand. therefore by his own logic all Celtic fans are now legitimate targets for similar treatment as a result of the actions of perhaps a tiny minority of their fellow fans at Solitude and Brentford. I would condemn such actions as forthrightly as I condemn the attacks on and by the Orange order members but FF is much more selective (hypocritical)……
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Orangeman / Republican in ‘I hate Glasgow Celtic / Orange Order and am prepared to believe any oul sectarian shite about its’ shocker. It wasn’t Orange Order members / Celtic fans who went on the rampage last week, Peter – it was Orangemen. 0/10 for whataboutery. (Surely 0/10 is a low score FF?)
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Here is the Celtic fan (presumably a securocrat or whatever the equivalent terminology is for this from Celtic fans) who first tweeted about it – check out his Twitter feed since that post……
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It takes an obsessive Sevco follower / Celtic hater to Google the goings on at Brentford, which is in England incidentally. You’re obsessing about Scottish football fans in England, ffs – nothing to do with here!
As for the Cliftonville v Celtic game there were 5,000 fans in attendance in north Belfast at a time of Orange-induced violence and there was no trouble whatsoever!! I can see why that sickens you!
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Believe it or not FF I am a Don not a Bluenose so missed and hot the wall there – and interesting rebuttal of my argument (ad hominem attack and no attempt to deal with the logical position I set out).
Time for bed for me and I suggest you too – you are going to need plenty of sleep to come up with a way of digging yourself out of the hole you are in now
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Dons fan / Celtic hater, you have dragged this thread off on the most irrelevant tangent but if you think you’ve somehow vindicated the Orange Order’s antics over the Twelfth by referencing the alleged misbehaviour of some Scottish football fans in England then good luck – you’re denser than I thought! Grand wizard material!
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FF hope your blood pressure is a bit lower now – I did not drag the thread off I merely pointed out that you seem to believe if a percentage of a particular group, however tiny, behave in a manner which others perceive to be offensive then we do not need to condemn those who attack them.
I disagree totally with this position and have not attempted to vindicate the actions of a handful of members of the Orange Order over the Twelfth who have not maintained their Qualifications. But equally I won’t apply a different standard to Celtic supporters – will you? I also like the way you dealt with substantive point (ignored it completely).
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Your bitter obsession with Celtic supporters is simply irrelevant to the thread. Back on topic – if you expect the PSNI to mount a quasi-military occupation of the Short Strand in order to facilitate your anachronistic hate-parades perhaps you should be prepared to pick up some of the tab.
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well how to deal withy that comprehensive demolition of my argument involving just ignoring it and engaging in an ad hominem attack on me instead – oh wait that’s right I don’t have to because you didn’t actually deal with it!
Your bitter obsession with Orange Order supporters is simply irrelevant to the thread. Back on topic – if you expect the PSNI to mount a quasi-military occupation of the Short Strand in order to facilitate your anachronistic hate-protests perhaps you should be prepared to pick up some of the tab.
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If you can provide me with a convincing reason why your intolerant and intolerable anti-Catholic parade should be allowed to pass by St Matthews’, not once but twice in the same day, I’ll condemn those youths who stoned it.
So if something is intolerant you can attack it without distinction – this presumably includes Celtic fans (without distinction)
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Or the Parades Commission. Or the Police. Or the Short Strand
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Incidentally, I note neither you not Ally can come up with a justification for the Orange Order plus bands and hangers-on being able to march past St Matthews and the Short Strand twice in the same day. Ditto for Ardoyne / Holy Cross.
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The parade on the Lower Newtownards Road takes place on the only major thorough fare from that part of East Belfast to the main parade and outside and indeed out of sight of the nationalist area of Short Strand – are you now seriously suggesting that nationalists should have a veto over every parade they can hear outside their area – if so the Ardoyne fleagh concert is under serious threat if is reciprocated (although of course none of your vetoes are reciprocated)?
Ardoyne similarly is the only direct thoroughfare from Ligoniel to the city centre and passes not through Ardoyne but past Ardoyne in a matter of minutes – I would be happy to lose the hangers on, particularly art Ardoyne, but the number of householders affected is tiny and ironically they appear to be represented by the much more reasonable CARA group. GARC like you appears to think that you are entitled to object to parades which do not directly affect you but merely pass near your home and I’m not sure what the Holy Cross is a reference to as far as Orange Parades are concerned – are you guilty of clutching at sectarian straws? Surely not more hypocrisy?
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The parades you refer to go right past Short Strand and Ardoyne respectively – but once a day isn’t enough for you boys, oh no. You want to have your sectarian cake and eat it!
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Well that is just as comprehensive an answer as the one you demanded from me….
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Succinct and to the point. You boys want to have your cake and eat it – and with a cherry on top too.
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Let me introduce you to sarcasm FF – I believe you are already acquainted with its close relative hypocrisy but apparently have not encountered sarcasm before…
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I believe the orange KKK should be allowed to march down the ardoyne and all other nationalist areas. The more the better. Then perhaps, nationalists will wake up and realise their position in ‘the UK’. Their position being to lie down and dont complain….and maybe crop their hair too.
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Yawn with the Orange KKK line, wt. Should I direct you to Ghana and Togo, by any chance?
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Stockholm syndrome.
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