Guest post by Sammy McNally:
A complaint about the BBC Northern Ireland program ‘The Twelfth’ has been rejected by the BBC Trust (which operates independently from the BBC) on the grounds that although the annual Orange Order parade was ‘controversial’ it was not ‘highly controversial’ – and not a ‘major matter’. The complainant had argued that the BBC had broken its own guidelines on dealing with controversial subjects when covering last year’s 12th July parade in Belfast.
(Full judgement here) http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/assets/files/pdf/appeals/esc_bulletins/2013/apr.pdf
Had the Trust determined that the parade was either ‘highly controversial’ or a ‘major matter’ then the long running (50 years) outside broadcast programme would have been in breach of the much more stringent requirements on impartiality – and the tone of the programme, which the complainant described as ‘promotional’ would have required revision.
It is an interesting decision by the Trust – who took the view that the spectacle of the parade in the centre of Belfast should be evaluated separately from incidents involving the controversy surrounding the marchers either on their way to or on their way back from the city centre.
In relation to the‘Ardoyne feeder parade’ the Trust found that – “although there was concern at the time about the return of the North Belfast feeder parade, the editorial focus of the programme was clearly the cultural and festive aspects of the parade itself as it passed through the very centre of Belfast.”
Similarly, in relation to the sectarian tune playing outside St Patricks Church the Trust took the view that the focus of program was the city centre and the controversy surrounding this incident was therefore not a significant factor in their decision.
The Trust also cited audience expectation in explaining its decision.
“given the long-standing nature of the programme, the audience would have had clear expectations about what the programme would cover, and the approach taken was consistent with that taken in previous years. “
What is (arguably) disconcerting about this decision by the Editorial Standard Committee of the BBC Trust is that BBC program makers can apparently sidestep the stringent requirements for impartiality by concentrating on those aspects of an event which are not‘highly controversial’ and sidestep the requirements for ‘signposting’controversial subjects on the basis that the audience are aware of the program content because it had been broadcast previously in a ‘similar format’.
It is difficult not to believe that the Trust might have taken a somewhat different line if a parade in London – which was viewed as sectarian/racist by about half the citizens of the city, required the presence of hundreds of riot police, which led to a serious deterioration in community and political relations over the following months because of a sectarian/racist incident, which went through areas where it was not welcome and where the parade organisers had been ambivalent about upholding the law – had been given similar promotional treatment by BBC London.
In fairness to BBC Northern Ireland, they have made it clear that “detailed discussion was taking place at a senior level about the nature of the coverage in 2013” and it will be interesting to see if the programme, shortly returning to our screens, provides what might fairly be described as a fuller and a more rounded view of the nature of the parade and its implications for public order and community relations.
In the ‘background’ details supplied as part of its judgement the BBC Trust notes that “In recent years, the Orange Order, with support from Belfast City Council, has sought to rebrand the day as “Orangefest”, an event for the whole community” and in fairness also to the Orange Order they have striven to move away from the more offensive trappings and associations of the parade.
…but the Orange Order are still some considerable distance away from convincing many people (and perhaps a majority of the citizens of Belfast) that they could ever stage an inclusive event devoid of triumphalism and sectrainism – given the political and religious objectives of the organisation – but it is to be hoped (if not now expected) that BBC Northern Ireland would reflect that particular reality in its program coverage.
Not trying to hijack your blog Sammy, a suggestion for your next guest blog maybe.
We are all aware of your view that everybody who identified themselves as Northern Irish in the last census is in reality a pro unionist/brit.
I would like to get your take on the NILT survey’s findings that 7% of protestants could never accept the possibility of there never being a united Ireland and 18% could accept the possibility of there never being a united Ireland but are not happy about it.
They don’t seem to keen to discuss the subject over on SOT and this sort of number crunching is not really FJH’s style.
It seems to me that these findings are tailor made for this blog in general and you in particular.
I await your response with interest
Tiocfaidh ar la
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maybe Im being unfair on the respondents but I think they got a bit muddled with the double negative style of the question. Pretty much every poll has support for a UI among protestants at 1%
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Its what I suspect too, its a very poorly written question, never underestimate the ability of academics to convolute or confuse any given issue.
Nonetheless its amazing that 25% of respondents got the question wrong even after supposedly having the question put to them by an interviewer.
It has to make you wonder about the veracity of all the data.
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With regard to the Twelfth, it is still a public holiday – Norn Iron’s national holiday if you will. Addressing this anachronism is the real equality issue.
With regards to the Beeb, they’re just covering Norn Iron’s national holiday celebrations. But they don’t invite nationalists to be part of their commentary team as a nationalist might highlight a few awkward truths about the event. This too is an equality issue.
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Well said Fear Feirsteach,
Keeping on topic, You make a very good point although I think St Patricks days is a de-facto bank holiday these days as well?
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Well, a couple of points:
1. a ‘de facto’ holiday is not the same as an official public-holiday
2. St Patrick’s Day cannot seriously be equated to the Twelfth.
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Fear F,
1. Agreed.
2. Also agreed. St Patrick’s Day embraces all, is inclusive and not built on a foundation of triumphalism, superiority, defeat of perceived enemies and militaristic nonsense.
3. My point. It is a public holiday in all reality.
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The really interesting figure is the increase in those who designate themselves as Irish in the NILT survey a year on from the census, up from 26% to 32%, interestingly the Slugger headline is: “NILT for 2012 suggests passion for constitutional issues is dropping fast”
And, Oh yes, I will be blogging on it….
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Irish Aussie
re. “It seems to me that these findings are tailor made for this blog in general and you in particular.”
I’ll have a word with the quarefellah from Dublin.
FF,
re. “But they don’t invite nationalists to be part of their commentary team as a nationalist might highlight a few awkward truths about the event. This too is an equality issue.”
They may inject a bit more ‘equality’ into this years programme.
Although many will beleive it is unfair to compare the Orange Order and the English Defence League – there is a comparison when the reaction to their presense in certain racially/religiously mixed areas is considered. The BBC have seemed(to me) to be underreporting the EDL activities at a time when race relations are understandly very sensitive in Britain.
If the EDL organised an event consisting of a non controversial celebration of British culture in a welcoming area in London followed by a contentious march plus some violence through a racially mixed area I dont think that BBC London would get away with running a promotional program about just the fun and games in the welcoming area.
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I would quite like to hear a nationalist commentator on the Twelfth parade in Belfast, perhaps an alternative commentary behind the red button, as the Beeb say. He could give us (or she) views on banners of Martin Luther, Queen Victoria, the Battle of the Somme or Thomas Andrews. I’d like Eamonn Phoenix.
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No, no need for a separate commentary. Just a nationalist on the ‘team’ to point out all the sinister crap the unionists ignore.
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I’d like to nominate Summer Marching for the theme tune http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEnuwVAkhlg&NR=1&feature=fvwp
Or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NONSwCt0uc
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Anewdawn,
Oh, my aching sides….brilliant! I’m embedding video here:
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I love the way the “guests” mention the jolly paraders from across the North Channel.
“Bridgeton and Larkhall are big Oranges areas” to quote a former unionist MP for Fermanagh.
Yeh and your average NI middle class unionist wouldn’t be seen dead in those two areas.
Any support that unionism has from Scotland is of the “space cadet” variety.
The 11th night is a jolly festival.
Dancing around the bonfire like something from a KKK rally.
Maybe Peter should invite a few “catholic unionists” along to enjoy the festivities.
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Belfast and Central Belt loyalism have a lot in common, they are after all the two great urban areas of Scotland within and without.
The average middle class unionist wouldn’t be seen dead at many bonfires around NI, I’m always at home and tucked up in my bed on the eleventh by midnight, an early start and a long walk ahead away from the family make it more of a tradition to spend it at home and have a nice dinner (or if we’re really lucky, a barbeque and our own mini bonfire as I chargrill another beef sausage!).
There will however be plenty of middle class unionists in my home town today, enjoying the Carrickfergus Pageant. I was down on Thursday night to the fair with the kids and might get back to the town to catch the tail-end of the parade but I’ll miss King Billy’s dodgy wig getting onto the pier.
There are also plenty of middle class unionists who head to Scarva on 13th July, which has a real family feel.
Just as in republican circles, there are some things you’ll like and others that won’t float your boat, be it St Patrick’s Day, GAA or Irish dancing.
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carrickally,
When we strip away the Irish angle from the Battle of the Boyne and view it in the context of a European war – I have to admit to being more of a King William man than a King James man (I say that as a non religious person) – on the basis that ‘Protestantism’ was the more progressive force – though the claims in this regard are probably over stated.
Last year – at the prompting of herself(who is interested in one of Duchesses who was a bit of a quareone) I visited Chatsworth – which is something of a shrine to King Billy. It would seem like a good destination for the Orange Order to run annual trips – I was (almost) expecting to see Shankill tour buses in the car park – though would make for an interesting cultural mix.
..and I do like the red button for Nationalists idea.
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In our situation, it’s very hard to remove the war of the Three Kingdoms from the European (or dare I even say proto-global) war. It’s clear that there were clear losers in Ireland in the Jacobites and those who supported them either through loyalty to land or religion or, as is more likely, in the hope of bettering their lot. Unfortunately, the peace administered by the Ascendency battered the losers and the Presbyterians who helped win the war. Let’s not forget that Londonderry was a Presbyterian stronghold and yet the role of the Scots was wiped for many years from the record and their service was not rewarded in the same way that Anglicans’ was. Even literally today, I was walking in the grounds of a CoI church in Holywood in amazement, then my rampant socialist presbyterianism kicked in and I raged to my wife about my forefathers paying tithes to fund all around us!
Perhaps a century or two ago, we in the UK could look at the victory of the early “democracies” of England and Holland (let’s conveniently forget about the absolutist allies) through to the early decades of the eighteenth century over France to prove that “we” had stopped a tyrant and were living off the fruits of our soldiers’ labours. That story doesn’t wash anymore as time has marched on and the benefits of the past that allowed a balance of power to swing towards the UK have long since faded. It just shows that triumph is only ever fleeting, especially in a modern world where time really does fly.
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I had to read that 3 times Carrickally.
No fault on your part, I wanted to understand it correctly. I’ll leave the Jacobean stuff to FJH, it’s his area of expertise but of course, as an Irish nationalist, I am very well aware of how Presbyterians were treated at the expense of the “established” church in times past and how they found common cause with Catholics as a result, politically if not theologically. 🙂
I am also acutely aware of how division was carefully fostered in more recent times by others to sow political, not theological, division and why.
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carrickally,
re. “That story doesn’t wash anymore as time has marched on and the benefits of the past that allowed a balance of power to swing towards the UK have long since faded”
I can understand the 12th from the point of view of a day out but for someone like yourself who clearly is not interested in the triumphalism then given your statment above – what is the parading actually about – is it more than the pageantry and meeting friends / family, music etc?
re. Jacobites.
This is something I have asked FJH about – but he has not been forthcoming. King James was a Scotsman who wanted to be British King – why Irish Nats or Irish Republicans would want to identify with this malarkey I dont quite get. A British king is still a British king irrespective of whether he is a Catholic.
re. “Let’s not forget that Londonderry was a Presbyterian stronghold and yet the role of the Scots was wiped for many years from the record and their service was not rewarded in the same way that Anglicans’.
This is something which I have little appreciation of – but seems to have largely faded over time – presumably becuase Irish Nationalism was a common enemy?
On our side of the fence we of course like to claim the Presbyterians of Wolf Tone’s era and as Bangordub will remember last year there was some fun over on Slugger regarding Nelson McCausland and Republicans arguing over the grave of a United Irishman (not sure if it was Henry Joy McCracken ) with Nelson delightedly pointing out to to Republicans that the United Irishman had returned to loyalty to the throne before his death and that their annual march to his grave in the North Belfast cemetry was therfore a bit silly. (Just checked on Wiki and doesnt mention the boul Henry switching allegiance).
Bangordub,
Do you remember this little spat?
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Sammy,
Indeed I do, Clifton St if memory serves.
To clarify, I make no claim as to the alliegences of the presbyterians of 1798 in today’s context. I think they made common cause with the catholics of the time due to persecution of their faith and economic as well as political exclusion. I believe they shared equally from famine and emigration at that time
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Carrickally – The Scots were about to enter Derry to hold it for King James when the extremists closed the gates.
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I think the spat was over Wiliam Drennan
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Croiter,
The boy Willie was the one ta.
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The 1790’s were a complex and pivotal decade in Irish history and all too often hijacked and distorted by political agendas in the modern day, which is a shame as getting to grips with all the dynamics is fascinating.
The United Irish rebellion was in 1798 but conveniently often not connected to this as a side-dynamic is the foundation of the Orange Order in 1795. West Ulster Presbyterians were much more likely to join the yeomanry than any United Irish faction. The United Irish society was rife with informers.The Catholic defenders grafted on to the United Irish cause by the Presbyterian organisers quickly used the rising as an excuse for sectarian blood letting. This latter point was a very significant factor in making the Presbyterians realise their vulnerable position in Ireland and seeking sanctuary in the Act of Union of 1801, and differences between Anglicans and Presbyterians melted away as they identified a more common cause. Also a big influence here was how the noble ideals of the French revolution-egalite, fraternite, liberte etc, which inspired the United Irish movement in the first place descended into the ‘terrors’ massacres in France, and as the revolutionary zeal in France became so tainted so did it in Ulster, as Ulster too let blood. All the while many Catholics in Ulster swore continuing loyalty to the King while many of their Presbyterian neighbours denounced him.I would need to check but I remember it being robustly discussed that wolf tone was a fruitloop.
Its a shame the Shinners took it over as it should be very rich and insightful history for all.
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Unless Orangemen in Bridgeton and Larkhall don’t vote, which is possible seeing how lumpen their membership is, then working class Orangemen might very well be voting SNP!!!
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By Daithi McKay:
A chara, – Conall McDevitt MLA (June 6th) sought to morally exculpate the SDLP from his party’s calculated decision this week to rubber-stamp the passage of anti-Agreement unionist Jim Allister’s Civil Service (Special Advisers) Bill through the North’s power-sharing Assembly.
The Irish Times Editorial (June 5th) was accurate in observing that the SDLP have done themselves, and the 1998 Belfast Agreement, significant damage.
Mr Allister’s Bill is an affront to the agreement, to its essence, its values, its terms, its conditions and, not least, its ground-breaking equality and human rights agenda under constitutional and public international law.
It is a matter of historical record that when the conflict erupted in August 1969, shortly before they founded the SDLP, senior nationalist politicians like Paddy O’Hanlon and Paddy Devlin came to Dublin pleading publicly and privately for weapons to defend their community against wholesale pogroms by unionist mobs and state forces.
By its actions this week, the SDLP has now hypocritically singled out for immediate redundancy a political ex-prisoner currently employed as special adviser to Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness, who, as a teenager, had personally suffered those very pogroms on his own streets in west Belfast before becoming involved in the armed conflict raging around him.
It is also a matter of record that, throughout the past 15 years since the agreement, republicans and political ex-prisoners have repeatedly served as special advisers to executive ministers – including when Seamus Mallon and Mark Durkan were respectively the deputy first minister.
Only now, at Mr Allister’s behest, has the SDLP leadership suddenly decided to support an exclusion agenda despite facing significant internal opposition in its own Assembly group.
The reality is that Mr McDevitt could have made a difference this week by taking a stand for human rights and the agreement, and voting for equality and inclusion through signing a Sinn Féin Petition of Concern. This petition would simply have ensured the agreement’s power-sharing voting mechanism was triggered, taking weighted account of cross-community opinion. That is the essence of power-sharing which the SDLP has now thrown on the scrap-heap.
Instead, on this occasion, the SDLP tried to cynically damage Sinn Féin by disgracefully abusing the rights and needs of selective victims, and by introducing a new “pecking order” of supposed deserving and less-deserving victims.
Yet, in so doing, the SDLP has merely ensured that political ex-prisoners will face even greater institutionalised exclusion and discrimination than at any stage since the agreement.
It is to the SDLP’s shame, and long-term detriment, that not one MLA had the courage to support the basic checks and balances of the agreement in order to protect its long-term values of inclusion and equality. – Is mise,
DAITHI McKAY MLA,
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The Agreement was 15 years ago. As Daithi would no doubt say in other circumstances, this is progress. Whilst not a proper cross-community vote, it is the closest in a contentious area so far and I think highlights the concern about parity of esteem, in John Hume’s words, for [U]everyone[/U].
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Pingback: BBC NI’s “The Twelfth” live coverage in 2012 complied with impartiality guidelines, but questions must remain about how the Twelfth is covered « Slugger O'Toole
Daithi,
It is a touch disingenuous to compare the defensive actions of someone wishing to defend their home with the (military) offensive actions of members of the PIRA – although of course they are not mutually exclusive activities – and some people may have been involved in both..
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Sammy,
Meant to post the link- apologies but I’ll leave it up, It’s from today’s Irish Times
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Sammy,
“I can understand the 12th from the point of view of a day out but for someone like yourself who clearly is not interested in the triumphalism then given your statment above – what is the parading actually about – is it more than the pageantry and meeting friends / family, music etc?”
I love the Twelfth as a day out; we meet up early, I pick up my dad and two brothers (and now one nephew) and head to meet up with our lodge. This year we can only afford a band on the way home and that’s the bit I’ll be looking forward to, along with seeing familiar faces along the route.
“This is something I have asked FJH about – but he has not been forthcoming. King James was a Scotsman who wanted to be British King – why Irish Nats or Irish Republicans would want to identify with this malarkey I dont quite get. A British king is still a British king irrespective of whether he is a Catholic”
James was a horrible shit (as the Irish found out) who was only interested in himself and family, like all kings of the period. William was only interested in Holland, which is slightly more admirable as it’s a lovely place and even then was an enlightened heart of Europe. I could certainly think of worse causes to be fought for.
“This is something which I have little appreciation of – but seems to have largely faded over time – presumably becuase Irish Nationalism was a common enemy?”
Famine, racked rents and the religious qualifications affected Presbyterians and led to the conditions for United Irishmen. In a way it is a story that was repeated in 1969, if you want to draw parallels and, to a degree, republicans do. We were hungry and oppressed (probably to the same level as RC’s in the Stormont era, in real terms) and although some fought, many didn’t. Many emigrated when they could. Again, the parallels are striking.
History reall is full of lessons and, as Croiter pointed out, the regiment moving into Londonderry was indeed Scots – from both sides of the North Channel – and the Presbyterian apprentice boys seized the day from the dithering Anglican patriarchs inside the walls. I’m not however going to paint the CoI at the time in a terrible light. I’m sure that most of the Inniskillings would have been CoI and they struck out repeatedly and to devastating effect.
Ironic too that the first troops across the Boyne were the Catholics of the Dutch Blue Guard, and that the Danes went soon after – they had been doubted in the Williamite Council of War and Wurtemburg wanted to prove they were hardy. Although nationality wasn’t as firmly established in most professional fighting men at the time, I wonder what effect there was psychologically on French fighting French, English v English (I won’t go for Irish v Irish as I don’t believe at that time the Ulster planters would have considered themselves as such, although it shouldn’t be forgotten that this would not be the case in the Pale and Dublin, which was majority Protestant for another generation). The only known record of it at the Boyne is Schomberg to the Huguenots; “There are your persecutors.”
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Should be pointed out the Scots Parliament completely banned Catholicism in 1560.
For all the faults the founding fathers of Northern Ireland had, they never tried to outlaw Catholicism or hang priests for saying Mass.
For all the gripes i have about Orangeism, most Orange office bearers i have met and i have know a few, they seemed sane and rational people.
Couldn’t say the same about the “blue bag” element though.
Carrickally, interesting point you made about nationality.
Could you expand it.
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PT, nationalism didn’t really become a force in the minds of the ordinary people until the late eighteenth century – American and French revolutions were the western catalysts for this – but was apparent in early modern times in the literature of Shakespeare (for Harry, England and St George), and only truly took off across Europe by the mid-nineteenth century.
Before that, in medieval times it was common for the elite to hold lands and titles in more than one “country”; there were Scots lords with possessions in England in the early fourteenth century, English with French lands and French with Spanish possessions. At a macro-scale, just look at how the Hapsburg family carved up much of southern and central Europe.
Going into supposition here because I haven’t done any reading to back up the next statement; the Reformation played a major role in consolidating nationalism because the re-organisation of the continent (a polite euphemism for the devestation wrought in the Thirty Years’ War and previous conflicts) meant that rulers had to have more of a tie to their landholders and religion was a bond that ensured a closeness that was then matched by spoken language and, as literacy increased to allow reading of the Bible, the written word.
Nationality in Irish terms has always fluctuated and has often been imposed from the outside. I’m sure plenty of you take delight in everyone, no matter whether we self-proclaim as British, being identified as Irish outside of this island. Ever was it thus, with point of origin often being the designated status of the immigrant to America from the 1600’s, with the Presbyterians being classified as Irish on arrival despite many having been born in Scotland, within a century Presbyterians were Irish, by the end of the next century they were British and into this hundred years a large part are happy to be Northern Irish.
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One of the first countries in Europe to define a separate Nationhood must be the Scots with the Declaration of Arbroath in 1320.
Out of curiosity, what nationality would those meeting up in Dan Winters cottage back in 1795 have thought themselves.
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Did you know there was a briefly a Wexford Republic in 1798, I think, if memory serves me?
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Bangordub
Having been in virtual hibernation over the winter months and woken by the return of the lambeg drums to Ahoghill I think it is time for some balance here at least on the original topic.
The Twelfth programme(s) morning and evening are exclusively about the parades organised by the orange Orders and I notice that no-one to date at least and you are now well off topic has actually been specific about what is offensive about the parades themselves. Eleventh night bonfires are nothing to do with the loyal orders and are generally an excuse for an outdoor drinking session by local youths ostensibly to commemorate the same event but are not a stick to beat the loyal orders with any more than internment bonfires can be associated with the AOH (whose American branches in particular have more to answer for in terms of terrorist associations that any loyal order).
The Belfast Twelfth itself is more family friendly than it used to be and although not perfect is a considerable improvement on what it was although it suffers from the same on street drinking issues as St Patricks Day (I am interested to note that apparently it is inclusive and embraces all – the facts speak for themselves in terms of perception and participation).
Outside Belfast Twelfth parades are more family orientated – I defy anyone to come to Ahoghill next month and find anything to be offended about at a fun family day out. In terms of TV coverage we are the BBC has 2 choices – pull all single identity coverage or cover it all. If the Twelfth is controversial to nationalists and has to go then so should GAA coverage with all its issues for unionists – personally I would rather have both retained than dropped….
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Just to be pedant the AOH would be closer to August 14/15 bonfires than the internment ones.
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That’s why a nationalist commentator is needed on the BBC, Peter – to point out to you what is offensive. If you only ever listen to your own propaganda you’ll think it’s all hunky-dory.
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Good to have Carrickally on here then eh 😉
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Peter,
Sammy has given a comprehensive reply below and it is, of course, his blog above.
For my part, I find the whole twelfth thing operates on a number of levels. For some, such as perhaps Carrickally, it is a family and community occasion as much as a political one. For others it is unquestionably about triumphalism and rubbing the neighbours noses in it.
I absolutely refute the idea that the GAA is in any way a similar organisation. I’m happy to provide a list of reasons
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Peter Brown,
re. “The Twelfth programme(s) morning and evening are exclusively about the parades organised by the orange Orders and I notice that no-one to date at least and you are now well off topic has actually been specific about what is offensive about the parades themselves.”
The BBC Trust is of a view that the ‘Belfast parade’ is ‘controversial’ – it is unclear if BBC Northern Ireland share that view. In order to sustain the Trust’s view that the event is only ‘controversial’ rather than ‘highly controversial’ it agrees with BBC Northern Ireland that pageantry in the centre of Belfast can be taken seperately from the rest of the events – i.e. getting to and leaving the city centre and what happens outside of the city centre. That view, in my opinion was rightly challenged by the complainant in this case.
It has been well documented that ‘Orange Parades’ which celebrate a victory by one community over the other are regarded as being triumphalist and /or sectrarian by Nationalists and are not welcome through or past ‘their’ areas.
Of course it can be argued that celebrating Protestant history by marching is not offensive and no doubt a large number of those marching do not wish to cause offence but the reality is – and not just becuse of some cunning plot by SF – many Nationalists do find Orange parades offensive.
Given the nature of Northern society parading is therefore HIGHLY controversial – so much so that in centuries gone by the British government has banned it and in more recent years a Parades Commission has been set up to issue determinations on routes , particpants behaviour etc – including the Belfast parade. Last years parade was marked by the Ardoyne ‘feeder’ issue and the St Patricks Beach Boys issue and whilst the BBC could not have anticipated the later – they would be very aware that parades of this nature have the potential to cause to serious inter-community disorder.
The BBC should give extended coverage to the parades as a reflection of the attachment Unionists/Protestants have for their traditions but not at the expense of masking either the underlying nature of the parades, their negative impact on community relations, the potential for serious disorder and not at the expense or their own guidelines.
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“The BBC should give extended coverage to the parades as a reflection of the attachment Unionists/Protestants have for their traditions but not at the expense of masking either the underlying nature of the parades, their negative impact on community relations, the potential for serious disorder ”
Can you ever imagine that happening?
The OO forbids Roman catholics from joining, (view of past and present documents) ,
was banned in the 19th century for disturbing the peace of His majesty’s catholic subjects” (picture of king in question),
are viewed by Catholics as . . .( “interviews),
benefit the tourist industry in NI as thousands holiday elsewhere (interviews with tour operators)
are supported by Flegspeople (see the mirror @wordpress.com)
And so on and so forth . . . ..
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Bangordub
The Orange order is ostensibly at least a religious organisation and in reality a political group with religious overtones or undertones depending on your point of view (and unfortunately less religion in Belfast than elsewhere it has to be said).
The GAA similarly is ostensibly a sporting organisation and receives massive public funding (particularly compared to the loyal orders and parades) but you need only read its rule book to find that it is in fact a political movement with sporting overtones or undertones – quotes “(s)ince she has not control over all the national territory,
Ireland’s claim to nationhood is impaired” and its stated basic aim being “the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes”, its attitude towards the national (sic) flag and anthem at games (contrast the attitude to the IFA from nationalists), etc all mean that the GAA is not what it would like us to believe – an amateur (?) sporting organisation. For some of its members it fulfils its founders aim of being “a future army of resurgent Gaeldom” and its attitude during the Troubles was not always as forthright non violent as it should have been, too often turning a blind eye about what went and continues to happen on its premises in flagrant violation of its own rules.
Much of that can also be said about the orange order and both organisations are not entirely without merit – just the opposite the glaring problems are the exception rather than the rule. What is most galling to unionists is that the Orange Order is tarred with the same brush as its weakest link with many in our community accepting that it has issues to resolve (myself included) but woe betide anyone who points out the similar splinter in the eye of the GAA and it rarely if ever happens from within the nationalist community.
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BD, I would be with Peter in viewing the GAA as a similar organisation to the OO. Both are at the heart of their communities and their events attract thousands of spectators. Both have their fair share of dinosaurs but also progressives. Both have political undercurrents. Both represent an ideal of nationalism. Both can undoubtably be good fun. Both have image problems with some of the “other” community.
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Carrickally,
Accepting your points,
perhaps some differences may be that the GAA have no bar or bias on religion, are primarily about sport and have no desire to inflict themselves on those who have no interest in them?
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well, the Orange order are a religious organisation for the protestant faith. religious in terms of theology. Same way as the Catholic church has a bar on protestants etc.
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The GAA do not hold thousands and thousands of parades every year
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Neither do the Orange Order, Anne.
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Carrickally, as a matter of interest how many parades are there? Roughly
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The book ‘blood and thunder’ by a southern irish man of seeming nationalist background, draws a lot of similariites between the role of the GAA in the nationalist community and the role of the OO but more marching bands in the unionist community. He wrote about the band in Castlederg in a favourable but balanced light.
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Except that they are biased on political opinion not religion, are for the reasons above not just a sporting organisation, and in terms of TV coverage and public funding, leagues ahead of the loyal order – kettle pot black?
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Peter,
I’m missing your point, could you be clearer?
Are you saying the GAA is based on Politics?
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carrickally, peter brown
There are similarities between the OO and the GAA in terms of their importance to their respective communities and both have ‘interactions’ at various points with ‘their’ respective paramilitaries.
What we are discussing here is an event which is arranged annually by the Orange order – ie the Belfast parade and whether it is ‘controversial’ which is what the BBC Trust beleives or ‘highly controversial’ as the complainant suggested and whether it is acceptable for a broadcaster to only focus on the positive elements of an event when evaluating it.
It is perhaps unfortunate for the PUL that their culture involves celebrating victory over thier nighbours and as a result that tends to generate poor relations between the 2 communities in a way that a game of Gaelic football never could- and that means that controversy has been a feature of Orange order parades for hundreds of years continues and is likley to continue as long as Northern Ireland comrpises these 2 communities.
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Sammy
“It is perhaps unfortunate for the PUL that their culture involves celebrating victory over their neighbours ”
Sorry for being flippant but have you never been to a Derry / Tyrone game?
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Yes Bangordub – it is openly political it even says so in its rules which are less than inclusive (just like the Orange order’s) yet it gets funding and coverage the loyal orders can only dream of
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Peter,
Where in the rules? please note I am not a member
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“Yet it gets funding and coverage the loyal orders can only dream of”
How much more money do you want??
Orange Order receives £900,000 EU grant
17 APRIL 2012
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/orange-order-receives-900000-eu-grant-28738584.html
Orange Order celebrates £4m grant for two new museums designed to tell its story
01 NOVEMBER 2012
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/orange-order-celebrates-4m-grant-for-two-new-museums-designed-to-tell-its-story-28880263.html
Orange Order Funding Welcomed by DSD Minister
DUP MLA for North Belfast and DSD Minister Nelson McCausland welcoming the allocation of £4million of EU funding to the Orange Institution which will be used to develop two new interpretive centres, one in Belfast and the other in Loughgall.
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In reply to Carrickally who queried my figures and to
Bangordub who asked for figures:
TOTAL PARADES BY TYPE
The number (2,629) of parades organised by the Loyal Orders and broad Unionist tradition represents 66% of the overall total. This is a slight increase from the previous year’s figure (2,606), which accounted for 67% of the overall total. The number (123) of parades organised by Nationalist groups was a further decrease from the previous year (134) and remains very low at 3% of the overall total.
This Annual Report covers the period 1 April 2010 to 31 March 2011
It was presented to Parliament (Westminster) pursuant to Schedule 1, paragraphs 12 and 13, of the Public Processions (Northern Ireland) Act 1998
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Thank you Anne.
Thorough reply if ever there was one 😉
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Anne, I didn’t query your figures, I know there are roughly 2.5k parades in total. The OO organise around 1k of those. Not thousands and thousands, as you stated. You could therefore say that I highlighted your exaggeration. 😉
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Anne
How many are deemed controversial?
Ben Madigan
Compare and contrast £900k from Europe with nearly £100m from the taxpayer (ignoring local councils and Europe) alone
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2006-10-09i.90992.h
bangordub
I have quoted above their stated aim
“the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes”
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Peter,
Thank you, that is a Social, not a Political aim. The GAA is a 32 county organisation founded at a time when it was a 32 county jurisdiction under the domination of a foreign power. I fail to see your objection?
Indeed the experience of many nationalists since partition in the North has been the denial and subjection of their national identity. Hence the ragged flags at lamposts, the refusal’s to share power and, well, I could go on
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Peter
didn’t you look at the second link talking about £4 million funding? Didn’t you enjoy the clip of mr mc causland welcoming it?
How much more do you want?
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Bangordub
If you read the rules of the GAA in their entirety, at least their stated aims rather than playing the games, and still maintain that they are an exclusively social / sporting organisation (of which you are not a member) then frankly that beggars belief. I do not seek to maintain that the loyal orders are exclusively religious and if there is not going to be pretence even of any reciprocation of that honesty then this is not a reasoned discussion.
Ben Madigan
You have linked to £4.9m of funding which is the only significant external funding the orders have received in living memory. I have linked to an average of £20m per annum for the GAA from central government alone – I want parity of esteem or an Ireland of equals as a nationalist or republican respectively might put it
Anne
I note that nationalist parades though small in number are disproportionately controversial – so perhaps not such a thorough answer after all?
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peter I clinked on the link you provided about funding to the GAAhttp://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2006-10-09i.90992.h
I added up the totals, using a calculator and the result was:
From 2001-2006 the GAA received a total of £1,624,394 in funding –which works out at an average of £350,000 odd per annum
I am unable to see whaer you got the figure of “an average of £20m per annum for the GAA from central government ”
Perhaps you would like to explain?
You also wrote” I want parity of esteem or an Ireland of equals as a nationalist or republican respectively might put it”
Does that mean you want £20,000,000?
What for?
And what are you offering in exchange for such a large sum in these straitened times?
As far as regards the number of parades, we were discussing the total number, which I provided.
Nobody mentioned “contentious” parades until you did. Even the original topic of the thread was not “a contentious parade”
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Anne
I think I misread the DFP figures which have 2 columns but it does not include DCAL funding which is the most significant supporter of the GAA (and more recently to a lesser extent the loyal orders but only since the change of minister)
.
I would suggest that the loyal orders would use any allocation (the GAA’s should come down and they could meet in the middle in these straitened times) for the same things the GAA uses their funding – buildings, equipment and staff providing temporary employment for the building sector, money for the local economy and jobs and facilities which are more likely to be open to the whole population that the GAA’s facilities (one lodge has already provided a multi use sports pitch which ironically would be contrary to the GAA’s rules about foreign games). What does the GAA offer for its lion’s share of the funding cake?
The topic by the way is actually about controversial v highly controversial parades hence the reference to the full facts in the Parades Commission report….
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Anne
“As far as regards the number of parades, we were discussing the total number, which I provided.”
Nobody was discussing the number of parades. You jumped in with hyperbole and then had to pull out figures, which then contradicted your own gross misrepresentation.
It’s amazing how much Orangeism raises the hackles on some.
PT, there shouldn’t be a problem with parading if the Donegal Beach Parade is anything to go by, now that we are in the era of a PUL minority (ie, -50%). Although it does beg the question as to why there is only one OO parade in RoI.
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Strange but true and i don’t know if the numbers have changed recent times, there are/was more Orange/ABOD/band parades held in Glasgow than Belfast.
Orange parades in places like Belfast/the North in general/Glasgow will be around long long after our great great grandchildren have left the planet going by Orange Order history over the last 218 years.
The OO have seen out 50 year parading bans, lifted in 1872 if i’m correct, the present day “legal” parades date from the repeal of the party procession act.
The fun on the political/parading front really starts from were BD’s figure kick in showing a NI with a non PUL majority.
Should be an interesting next few decades.
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http://www.newsletter.co.uk/life/loyal-orders/the-twelfth-2013/parade-protest-hits-a-new-low-1-5176213
The fun on the political/parading front really starts from were BD’s figure kick in showing a NI with a non PUL majority.
This does not bode well for that scenario PT – another highly controversial triumphalist parade with loud drums playing God Save The Queen (a misrepresentation (C) Mary McAleese c1995 regarding the National Anthem at QUB Graduations) is under attack….meanwhile in the same village Kevin Lynch GAA Club host republican parades flouting Parade Commissions guidelines on playing outside this very church accompanied by terrorist “actors” – an Ireland of equals indeed
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Dungiven parade is maybe the way forward.
Summer morning, once a year, no bands or banners, parade last no more than 10 minutes.
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The most infamous parade of them all – Drumcree – is a scaled up version of Dungiven – on a Sunday morning one band with hymns and no banners but as a District service rather than just one lodge many more marchers – still optimistic PT?
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I’m trying to work out if the Dungiven Crown Defenders Flute Band have folded or just didn’t turn up.
As for the whole Parades Commision thingy, let’s face it’s a sop on a whole number of ways to a whole number of groups.
Thing is, would turning the clock back move us forward.
And could the PSNI guarantee their officers wouldn’t split ranks at one these contentious parades.
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The parades commission solely exists to take the decision out of the chief constable’s hands. That’s very much a good thing in that it allows the PSNI to be seen to be impartial. Unfortunately, they do have to police the protests/parades (delete as seems appropriate). In that sense they are then tied in to the “conflict.”
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Carrickally
Is Eamon Phoenix the historian related to somebody with the same surname that died in 1994 Chinook helicopter crash on the Mull of Kintyre.
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Not sure, PT. he was or still is a lecturer at Stranmillis college.
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Thanks anyway Carrick,
Think i bought the book “Northern Nationlism” and not long after the Kintyre accident happened.
Did make me think there was a possible connection.
The name isn’t exactly common.
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In the light of conversations regarding certain GAA clubs, I’m compiling a list of OO lodges and affiliated bands with, shall we call it, questionable names. Mssrs Strain and Lightbody are obvious examples or the William Savage flute band, have a read of this from their web page:(http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3971503070)
“Tagline
Kick The pope
Me, Myself, and I
Alryt wots da crc!! wer da Toye. we r 1 of the oldest bands on the road (Est. 1917), our centinary is cummin up in a few short years. So show ur support for the best band in the land!
Dance Dance were eva ya may be, Why! We r the boys of the TF.B
We’re the best flute band in da fuckin land cuz we r the boys of the TF.B
O weel dance in Portavogie and weel dance in Portadown well dance in Comber and weel wreck da fukn town cuz we r da best flute band in da 6 counties cuz we r da boyz of da TF.B
Hullo, Hullo, we r da Billy Boys Hullo, Hullo, youl no us by r noise wer up to r nees in fenian blood surrender r youl die, cuz we r da Killyleagh Billy Boys!
Allllll together for da TF.B and the RHC
1688 NO SURRENDER 1690
up the Red Hand Commando
RHC D.Coy”
Hmmm, quite.
Has anyone similar from a GAA club? Thought not.
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I quite like the flute band RAP.
Don’t mind if i join in.
Weel dance with Bangordub, Weel dance with Fitzjameshorse and if the internets not working Weel send it out in Morse.
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There’s a whole argument there about educational standards and artistic development opportunities PT, not to mention political awareness and historical knowledge
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Bangordub
A list long on bands and short on lodges and details of the bands affiliations to the lodges other than presumably involvement in parades where they are not allowed any paramilitary emblems.
So the number of terrorist named GAA clubs still outnumbers the one admittedly suspect lodge – you left Freeman Memorial off the band list by the way
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Peter give me a chance, I’d only spent 5 mins on it 😉 I can name towns named after “terrorists” if you like?
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there’s another whole argument about use of language
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Benmadigan,
Agreed, not to mention songbooks
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Bangordub
I am not defending that lodge or those bands – I am merely pointing out that supporters of the GAA appear to think that it is without sin and can throw the first stone.
I am all too well aware of the piece of wood in the eye of loyal orders (although we could debate whether it is a splinter or a plank) and the wood in the eyes of certain bands – all I am asking is that everyone accepts that the GAA has wood in its eye too and like the loyal orders we can agree to disagree about the extent of the problem, which frankly in both cases is probably more about perception from outsiders than reality.
Yet once again there has been no acceptance of any blemishes on the GAA’s whiter than white public image despite the numerous incidents involving clubs, grounds, competitions in flagrant breach of the GAAs own rules….
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Peter,
I in no way would defend the actions of the GAA if they behaved badly or offensively in the eyes of others in the community. My argument is that they do not. They are unashamedly a nationalist, Irish organisation. They have every right to be so provided they respect the rights of those who differ. The essence of this discussion is that the OO do not respect the rights of the rest of us. The apprentice boys, do. hence the respect accorded to them.
What is required, in my opinion, is for the leadership of the orders to tackle the idiots, as illustrated above, within their own ranks. I think nationalists are doing that. I think unionists aren’t
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BD
“”I in no way would defend the actions of the GAA if they behaved badly or offensively in the eyes of others in the community. My argument is that they do not””
Are you not aware of the sectarian abuse aimed at the very-rare protestant players in GAA and the very questionable lack of action taken by the GAA when such incidents occur? Take the relatively recent Monaghan player are you aware of this, or a couple of years ago the Fermanagh player who walked off not willing to accept sectarian abuse from the crowd or opposing players no longer.
There have also been seemingly sectarian incidents against protestant children who have tried the sport. Unbelievably this has sometimes come from GAA adults against the kids.
There have been also numerous incidents of racism from crowds at GAA activities, and this has been quite widely reported.
The GAA appears to take little action on such incidents.
It seems to me that the GAA, especially in Northern Ireland, appear a little scared to take on certain clubs/individuals/mindsets for fear of the hornets nest they could whip up. Every organisation has its factions, and the GAA is no different.
I’m not saying other organisations are unblemished, but the GAA isn’t either.
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that was actually me wrote that last comment, computersharing!
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Alphiedale,
I’m not here to defend the GAA. I’m not, again, a member. All I can say is I would condemn racism or sectarianism by the GAA as strongly as I would from any quarter without reservation
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Why would anybody get upset by a load of kids writing nonsense on a flute band’s Bebo site.
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PT,
Nobody would, in the real world……………
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I in no way would defend the actions of the GAA if they behaved badly or offensively in the eyes of others in the community. My argument is that they do not.
So naming clubs & competitions after murderers (unlike bands) or lodges) is not offensive – no double standards there then?
They are unashamedly a nationalist, Irish organisation.
Which is described as supremacist when the orders are unashamedly unionist and protestant – no double standards there then?
They have every right to be so provided they respect the rights of those who differ.
A right denied to the loyal order whose events cannot be covered on TV without a balance required of GAA coverage – no double standards there then?
The essence of this discussion is that the OO do not respect the rights of the rest of us. The apprentice boys, do. hence the respect accorded to them.
The respect afforded to ABOD is far from universal – their parades are still picketed on the Parade Commission gives them credit for their stance on talks – no double standards there then?
What is required, in my opinion, is for the leadership of the orders to tackle the idiots, as illustrated above, within their own ranks. I think nationalists are doing that. I think unionists aren’t
Of course they are – except
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/ulster-gaa-admits-no-evidence-of-probe-into-ira-medals-complaint-1-5091701 despite
1.12 Anti-Sectarian/Anti-Racist
The Association is Anti-Sectarian and Anti-Racist and
committed to the principles of inclusion and diversity at all
levels. Any conduct by deed, word, or gesture of sectarian
or racist nature or which is contrary to the principles of
inclusion and diversity against a player, official, spectator
or anyone else, in the course of activities organised by
the Association
No double standards there then?
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carrickally,
re. “Famine, racked rents and the religious qualifications affected Presbyterians and led to the conditions for United Irishmen. In a way it is a story that was repeated in 1969, if you want to draw parallels and, to a degree, republicans do. We were hungry and oppressed (probably to the same level as RC’s in the Stormont era, in real terms) and although some fought, many didn’t. Many emigrated when they could. Again, the parallels are striking.”
I’m struggling to think of a more surpsing utternace that I have heard from a ‘themmun’.
In relation to the claim by ‘ussuns’ that Orange Parades and especially those that enter or skirt Nationalist are triumphalist in nature – what is your opinon on that.
Do you think that Nationalists have a genuine cause to feel offended (leaving aside any overt secatrian behaviour by marchers) by parades which appear to them to celebrate political victory over them?
The controversy surrounding the small number of ‘contested’ parades is a public relations disaster for the Orange Order – how do you think they should deal with that situation? ( I appreciate, that like any other organisation that seems to have been caught on the wrong side of the public debate they have to be careful to take their core support with them or risk a damaging fracture).
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sammy, I try my best to see things from “both” sides, accepting not that truth exists halfway between but that everything is about perception. My perception of the world is my own and not that of a group. Presbyterian individualism at its finest!
I’ll respond to the rest of the post later, this PC is very slow and I have to head out to do some work now.
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Meeting slightly postponed and on own laptop now, so things are moving more smoothly on the tech front!
As I said, it’s about perception. There seems to be a nationalist group perception that OO parades are a bad thing, they are triumphalist and everyone partaking in them is a raving bigot and possibly also a racist. Those who watch are spides with millie girlfriends and drink buckfast.
In some cases they aren’t wrong because as we all know, empty vessels make the most noise – and it’s also what they are looking out for to reinforce their stereotypes. Taking that as the baseline of perception, I would hate to see that that through or near my area.
To look at what Orangeism is from the outside is to see a monolith that celebrates the Battle of the Boyne. That then means that every OO parade must be a triumphalist celebration and I can see that connection is a very easy one to make. For me to say it’s lazy would be patronising, so instead, let me run through the parades that I take part in, either as a band member or in the Orange.
Church parade (with band) to CoI Church in N’Abbey. Generally a small one, on a short route along the Doagh Rd, we play hymn tunes, go into church, sit on the cushions and then walk back, playing hymn tunes.
1st July (with lodge) mistakenly called the mini-Twelfth, this is the biggie in East Belfast and attracts the blue baggers to the lower Newton. Head to the North Road or outside the Ballyhack Chapel to see the families with deckchairs along the roadside. In memory of the men of EB who died at the Somme. Bands play their full range.
Twelfth (with lodge). Blue bags are taken off the smaller groups by BCC and PSNI, there are no drink areas but there are plenty of drinkers along Lisburn Road if you want that sort of atmosphere, which is almost like a rock concert on the way home there. Full range of music.
Reformation Day (with lodge). Like the church parade but you don’t have me playing a flute. Crowds consist of two men and a dog watching. The other dog died of the colds of autumn.
Remembrance Sunday (with band). Mainly hymns, throw in Tipperary and other Irish military marches with the Legion, cadets and RNR. Generally cold and wet, few watching except for at the Church.
If I was to be offended, I would be offended at the bluebaggers. However, without separating the components (which is impossible if you are on the outside, looking in, and possibly with an already hostile perception) that’s the thing that will stand out and make you believe that every OO parade is like this.
I’ve said before that I believe the OO is making strides in the right direction to reduce issues around parades that are within their grasp, and in issues that aren’t (like on-street drinking) they have been working with the agencies that have the power and the responsibility to enforce it. You’ve acknowledged that when talking about the PR disaster that is contentious parades.
OO band contracts are there to ensure that bands who misbehave on parade are blacklisted. That means that they cannot be in an OO parade for a given length of time (usually two years) and they have to clean up their act.
However, the band scene is now so large and self-sustaining that they do not actually need to rely on OO money every Twelfth. An example would be Markethill on Friday night were just short of 100 bands took part in Kilcluney’s annual parade (and Kilcluney are a well-turned out and highly respected band that don’t get up to any mischief).
That’s a long-winded answer and I’m not sure if I’ve even given you a straight response! Genuine cause to feel offended – given history and perception, yes. I won’t go into what bothers “us” around protests as that will take the posts off in another tangent.
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carrickally,
As ever, very interesting detail.
Many public events attract people other than the organisers would wish to be in attendance and dealing with is not just a porblem for the Orange Order – it must be frustarting for many inside the Order in knowing that some ‘supporters’ are achieving the exact opposite of what perhaps they intend – ie damaging the oragnaisiation.
I think there are 4 areas that contribute to ‘ussuns’ being offended by ‘Orangeism’. Firstly the nature of the organisation ie exclusively Protestant and generally ‘hardline’ politically – with rules governing attendance of other religions'(only Catholic?) religious ceremonies such as funerals. Secondly, trappings and pre-marcing activities ie burning of effigies etc and on march sectrain activities. Thirdly, the subject of commemorations – often just about giving ‘our boys’ a damn good hiding in the vicinity of the Boyne and elsewhere and fourthly marching in areas where they were not wanted ie Nationalist areas.
I’m not sure what the Orange Order* can do about the first of these but for the others whatever principles and procedures they have in place to deal with some of these issues they dont seem to be working. As a point of information have the Orange Order to your knowledge ever publically condmened effigy burning. The old chestnut of it not being Orange Order memebers who are involved(which I think is the standard response) just does not wash.
Without dealing with these issues then the BBC’s ‘The Twelfth’ view of OrangeFest will remain completely inappropriate.
* used generically to cover all such organisations.
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Peter,
Define Murderers please? I think we may disagree.
I have family members as I suspect, others have who have died at the hands of who we would call murderers.
Supremacist. By that I mean I have no desire to march past the houses of my neighbours ramming what I regard as my songs and flags and rhetoric down their throats against their will. Please provide evidence of nationalists doing that.
Thank you for quoting the GAA rules on sectarianism, could you please quote the equivalent loyal order rules?
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Bangordub
Since when does murder need a definition? Those referred to in the news letter link above will do for a start…
As for nationalists doing it lets equate the situation at St Patricks with the Kevin Lynch parade in Dungiven and the situation of his memorial outside the local Church of Ireland
Qualifications of an Orangeman “ever abstaining from all uncharitable words, actions, or sentiments, towards his Roman Catholic Brethen”
Now how about leaving out the if and would from your still hypothetical condemnation of the GAA – the evidence has been laid out in great details and your failure to acknowledge it while persisting in pointing out the same flaws in the loyal orders which I have honestly accepted merely reinforces your double standards – others would call it hypocrisy
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Peter,
Again, what evidence?
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bangordub
I have answered each and every point you have raised usually with a link to an external article and still you think the GAA has no case to answer and is perfect although you “would” condemn it “if” it ever did anything wrong.
Your attack on the loyal orders by contrast has a link to the bebo site of a band and nothing else. I can only imagine what your reaction would be if the loyal order named lodges after Michael Stone or Billy Wright, presented trophies named after them or handed out medals with their pictures on it but that would only reinforce your blatant double standards.
My brief flirtation with discussion on this site is now officially finished as there are none so blind as those will not see. One lodge whose activities are currently being curtailed by the Order’s leadership is apparently enough to condemn all the other apples in the loyal order barrel yet despite the glorification of terrorists and the failure of the GAA to implement rules on sectarianism which are apparently lip service to create entitlement to funding and TV coverage it has done absolutely nothing wrong.
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Peter,
I have deliberately not linked to the numerous lol banners and flags commemorating various UVF figures or those whom nationalists would regard as terrorists. I was trying to create some room for discussion to be honest. I can happily provide multiple links and references if you require. I think you are trying to establish a link or equivalence between the loyal orders and the GAA. I cannot answer for the GAA and I cannot see the link you are trying to establish but thanks for contributing
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There was one controversial bannerette from that controversial lodge in memory of their dead member which although reprehensible in my opinion is exactly the justification used for terrorist commemorated by the GAA – if you can link to any other controversial lodge banners or bannerettes I’ll be surprised and that bannerette is as I understand it no longer permitted to be carried in official parades – whereas the GGA is taking no action to clean up its act…I have been tempted out of self imposed retirement to correct that inaccuracy and to point out that if you cannot see the parallels you simply need to read the links – exclusive single identity organisations with offensive behaviour issues but with different attitudes to tackling those which are not reflected in their portrayal and coverage in the media or external funding.
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I’ve never heard a bad word said at a GAA match.
Been in all of the Ulster grounds to see National League and Championship games.
I did once get a hard time from a drunken lout from Portadown wearing an Orange scarf.
Put that down to the guy thinking Armagh were the Man Utd of Gaelic.
Well they were All Ireland champions at the time.
Feel sorry for the Casement residents who getting a Stadium of Light built beside them.
Or as the residents would see it, Stadium of Darkness.
Still trying to figure out how the GAA would build a 40,000 all seater stadium in such a tight space.
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PT,
“Still trying to figure out how the GAA would build a 40,000 all seater stadium in such a tight space.”
like they built Croker perhaps?
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“like they built Croker perhaps?”
Very similar – both will have an ugly, uncovered rear ends that they rely on to increase capacity, at the expense of spectator basics such as a good view and a roof.
The main difference is that at Casement, the GAA still have an opportunity to do a U turn and build an exemplar 40k fully covered, fully seated stadium on a different site, one that is big enough to accommodate it.
A site far enough away from residents to maximise future maintenance revenue by running concerts.
A site big enough to build the two main stands to a proper depth, ensuring that as many fans as possible have optimal views.
A site that allows the stadium to be built to any height, delivering a top class stadium venue for Belfast.
The GAA top brass should realise the folly of continuing to cram a design into the Casement site when it simply isn’t big enough.
To appease residents, the GAA has so far
* removed the roof at the A’town Rd end, leaving GAA fans to face the rain yet again.
* the roof heights have been dropped, delivering a meek, anonymous building
* the capacity has been reduced from the tendered 40k to 38k
* to get to even that reduced 38k capacity, many people will be shoved onto the deepest stand, behind the goals at the A’town Rd end.
Can any architect point us to any instance over the last 40 years when a brand new stadium has had its deepest stand built uncovered, behind the goals, and outside the Optimal Viewing Circle?
Absurd.
I wonder about the morality of being the architect here.
At a legal level, they’re probably responding to the client’s wishes, however half baked they are.
At what point should they step in and advise the client that the overall result would be much better if they stopped and looked for a better site elsewhere.
This is a once in a lifetime opportunity for Ulster GAA.
Future generations will look at how they wasted it, for want of a decent site to start building on.
Musgrave Park, 500m away would be far better for the GAA and Belfast.
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re. the GAA and the OO beauty contest.
As mentioned above “There are similarities between the OO and the GAA in terms of their importance to their respective communities and both have ‘interactions’ at various points with ‘their’ respective paramilitaries. ”
I dont think the majority of particpants or supporters of either organisation are invoved becuase of these ‘interactions’.
What I think fair to point out is that becuase of the poltical and religious nature of ‘Orange’ parading – as events – they are much more likley to be (highly) controversial than (GAA) sporting occasions and particulalry so because of the changing demography and how that impacts on the geography of traditional parading routes.
What I think the BBC has got wrong with the program is attempting to portray parading in Belfast, which is (highly) controversial without that context.
re. Casement – as more of a ruggerball fan than a GAA fan it would be great if Casement was able to stage ruggerball matches – which is the plan if Ireland (North and South) win the right to stage the Ruggerball world cup and I would love to see Ulster play a Heineken Cup(HC) match in the new Casement – which will have about twice the capacity of Ravenhill.
ps Ulster have a difficult draw for the HC this year and hopefully the boy Ferris wont do a runner to Japan.
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I don’t imagine Kellogg’s would ever consider setting up a load of summer camps in association with the Orange Order.
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Yes, it’s amazing what good propaganda will get you, isn’t?
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sammy,
“Many public events attract people other than the organisers would wish to be in attendance and dealing with is not just a porblem for the Orange Order – it must be frustarting for many inside the Order in knowing that some ‘supporters’ are achieving the exact opposite of what perhaps they intend – ie damaging the oragnaisiation.”
It’s good that you recognise that there is a societal problem around crowds; usually but not exclusively alcohol-related. Generally related to a high degree of idiocy in the individual, multiplied by their group setting.
“I think there are 4 areas that contribute to ‘ussuns’ being offended by ‘Orangeism’. Firstly the nature of the organisation ie exclusively Protestant and generally ‘hardline’ politically – with rules governing attendance of other religions’(only Catholic?) religious ceremonies such as funerals.”
I’ll try to deal with these four issues separately. The first one is a given. It is an exclusively Reformed organisation that pledges allegiance to the British state. There are areas that need looked at, such as the official policy of not countenancing popish worship by presence. I’ve been at Catholic weddings, christenings and funerals and would do it again. I’ve never been censured by my lodge, the vast majority of whom have no doubt done the same (although we don’t keep a tally, as morbidly funny as that image might be of us sitting in our sashes and crossing out the mickeys to keep our slim majority in the blue skied paradise of Ulster). I’ve also attended Hindu, Sikh and Muslim ceremonies. I’ve never been invited to a Jewish one, which I think I’d enjoy. If you know any sons of Abraham, could you let me know so I can tick it on my bucket list? Recently, the emphasis has moved from being anti-Catholic to pro-Reformed, so there is definitely scope in the medium term for a future, official, change of policy. The politics issue is not one for me, or the Order, to comment on. In reality, if it is Unionist – from McCrea to Allister and everything in between, it doesn’t matter.
“Secondly, trappings and pre-marcing activities ie burning of effigies etc and on march sectrain activities.”
We like nothing better than a good effigy. Lundy, Thatcher, the Pope of the day, an occasional Irish Prime Minister, they’re all good for a burning. This is an historical throwback and, frankly, one that I don’t have an issue with. Lundy deserves to be our Benedict Arnold, Maggie was a rancid hag and no friend of anyone in NI, Pope’s the antichrist and meddlers in our affairs from times past should go up in a puff. I’d quite like to see Jimmy Saville on a pile of wood this year. What I don’t agree with is the burning of the flag of our southern separated brethren; they’ve been nice to us since 1998, bar the nicking of our football players and the lack of recognition of the British element in the IRFU.
“Thirdly, the subject of commemorations – often just about giving ‘our boys’ a damn good hiding in the vicinity of the Boyne and elsewhere”
It’s part of our historical narrative, I’m afraid. The commemorations include the duffing of the Franco-Anglo-Scotto-Irish army by the Anglo-Scotto-Dutcho-Franco-Swisso-Dano-German army at the Boyne, a similar result at Aughrim with a higher body count, the siege of Derry and the resistance of Enniskillen. In very “broad sweep” terms, these were the keys to the securing of our place on this island, for good or ill.
“and fourthly marching in areas where they were not wanted ie Nationalist areas.”
Again, something that should be reviewed when there is a genuine meeting of minds but the feeling is that as soon as one place is dealt with/ignored, another is pushed to the fore, and not by the OO. Dialogue is the way forward, undoubtably but to talk, you also have to listen. At times, there are few on both sides willing to do that.
“I’m not sure what the Orange Order* can do about the first of these but for the others whatever principles and procedures they have in place to deal with some of these issues they dont seem to be working.”
I think the first one is the easiest to tackle, actually. For the fourth one, there were proposals released today on the parades on Donegall St.
“As a point of information have the Orange Order to your knowledge ever publically condmened effigy burning. The old chestnut of it not being Orange Order memebers who are involved(which I think is the standard response) just does not wash.”
I have a feeling that, when questioned in the recent past, the response around burning tricolours was quite similar to my point of view; that the Irish were being very neighbourly and that it would be preferable that Irish flags were not burned.
“Without dealing with these issues then the BBC’s ‘The Twelfth’ view of OrangeFest will remain completely inappropriate.”
Hopefully that goes some way to dealing with the issues. You might say that I’m just one man but ideas often start with little more than that. You might also say that I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one.
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Carrickally,
I am aware you addressed previous post to Sammy and I’ll leave that to him to reply but a question for you. Bangor is currently festooned with flags. Orange order flags are displayed alongside uvf flags on the same lamposts. the lot will soon be in tatters as usual. Do you know or can you ask if the OO approves of this?
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More importantly, does the Police approve of it, If it is illegal they (the paramilitary flags) should be removed.
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Alphiedale,
The PSNI View: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/chief-constable-matt-baggott-says-erecting-flags-is-wrong-29238543.html
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BD, I have no idea who puts the flags up in Bangor. I do know in Carrick that they went up this time last week ahead of the pageant and will come down again at the end of the summer; it’s the local District who do it here. Last year they put up bunting for the Jubilee and then removed it later on in the year – they don’t wait until flags are in tatters. If they are the ones on the bypass around Bangor, do they have a band’s flag as well? I’m pretty sure I saw on Saturday what looked like a band crest?
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Nope, I’ve no idea who put them up but they are unquestionably UVF and OO flags side by side and put up at the same time. I can take pics if required, would the local lodge have a comment or should people draw the obvious conclusions?
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carrickally,
apologies for not covering all your points(whixh gave birth to a few guffaws) but I’m seriously struggling for time.
Also please excuse the next bit of ad hominem (man playing doesn’t sound too good to some) but I had a distinct sense of conversing with 2 different people with the following 2 statements which seemed to lurch from one end of the scale of moderation to the other –
Statement 1:
“Famine, racked rents and the religious qualifications affected Presbyterians and led to the conditions for United Irishmen. In a way it is a story that was repeated in 1969, if you want to draw parallels and, to a degree, republicans do. We were hungry and oppressed (probably to the same level as RC’s in the Stormont era, in real terms) and although some fought, many didn’t. Many emigrated when they could. Again, the parallels are striking.”
Statement 2:
“This is an historical throwback and, frankly, one that I don’t have an issue with. Lundy deserves to be our Benedict Arnold, Maggie was a rancid hag and no friend of anyone in NI, Pope’s the antichrist and meddlers in our affairs from times past should go up in a puff.”
There is just one (Unionist) carrickally – isn’t there?
Or perhaps I’m just being a bit selective in that observation– as thinking about it I have my own inconsistencies in these difficult matters and have (shamefully) been known to go under cover as a Prod – before being rumbled and oxtered-oot of Slugger.
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Don’t worry about playing the man, I’m a dirty git on the football field and nothing gives me greater pleasure than seeing man, ball and hoardings ending up on the terracing!
I can assure you there is just one carrickally, I’m happy enough to be surprisingly moderate in many things and pretty hardline on others. However, I don’t see the inconsistency with recognising the conditions that allowed extremism to flourish (either United Irish or republican) and accepting that there is another historical account on this island that cherishes its history also – it just so happens that for the period 1689-1969, it was the “winning” side and therefore its narrative will seem to be one of triumphalism. I’ve rarely heard of good winners in history, especially in Ireland.
Off now to see a little Irish baby, not so much a bangordub but a glengormley dub!
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Captain Shamrock,
Thank you and thank you again for your excellent post on Casement.
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shucks.
I did forget to add one more reason:
The Casement site isn’t big enough to disperse the crowds safely.
As a result, one of Belfast’s main arterial routes, the A’town Rd, would have to be closed for several hours on match days.
This would have a heavy impact on through traffic, whose displacement would significantly add to congestion caused by match day traffic.
Additionally, the A’town Road is a key route in the projected Belfast Rapid Transport scheme, and rerouting the articualted buses would have an impact from Derriaghy to the shipyard.
If the site was bigger, eg Musrave Park, then crowds would be able to safely disperse with the confines of the site itself, and there’d be no need to close any adjoining arterial routes.
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CS, whilst no follower of GAA, I personally am delighted that the main stadium in Belfast will be built on its spiritual home. Likewise Ravenhill and Windsor as the homes of Ulster and NI/that other dirty shower that play in blue.
I just wish that we could find a way to stay at the Oval without it crumbling around us.
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Interesting stuff on Casement Park, I must admit I’d not given it much thought beyond being pleased about the redevelopment. Very persuasive arguments above though.
Carrickally, I believe the Glens are on a much sounder financial footing recently and that can only be a good thing 🙂
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Seriously bangordub – now the loyal orders are responsible for their flag appearing beside UVF flags which in my area are all erected by non members who acquire them on the open market not from us and their condition in 6 months is the subject of adverse comment in my lodge. Any bunting erected by the order in Ahoghill will be taken down after Black Saturday but by your reasoning I expect I am allow to complain to the Department of Foreign Affairs about the tricolours on Artillery Flats, in the centre of Rasharkin and draped over the coffin at paramilitary funerals. Talk about demonization!
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Peter,
I wasn’t blaming the OO for putting up the flags, I was commenting on the Order saying nothing about it. Fuller reply below.
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My comparison still applies – if your flag is up in an inappropriate place / context then you must comment…
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Peter
“then you must comment…”
Must I indeed? As a matter of record I have, many times. Here and elsewhere.
My opinion is that national flags of whatever colours, should be shown respect and flown in a manner that is dignified and not in a manner designed to cause offence or demonstrate superiority. Read Tim Collins speech in Iraq for example.
That includes my flag for the avoidance of doubt. If a tricolour is flown innappropriately or, for instance, not lowered at sundown, I have no hesitation in critisising that. If it is flown purely to cause offence then that is wrong. Would you agree?
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