Hi all,
I’ve been quiet on the blogging front for a while. Forgive me. I have spreadsheet overload and some family “issues” to sort.
I have noticed that a new “Welcome to Northern Ireland” sign has gone up on the
M1/ A1 at Newry in the past week. Given my own family connections to the area I’m curious as to how long it will last. The whole idea of these signs is, of course, a matter of unionist ministers trying to re-establish the idea of a “border”. A border that has become all but invisible in recent years, at least in physical terms.
Anyhow, the sign is large and substantial and has a camera positioned right beside it. Knowing the area quite well I am sure the challenge, and challenge it will be perceived as, will be accepted. Over to you:
(UPDATE 13 JUNE 2013: The sign has been seriously defaced. The 1 Month,ers have it!)
"We in coming days may be" 
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/no-welcome-for-northern-ireland-border-signs-as-theyre-ripped-down-in-protest-28779286.html
Didn’t last long the last time.
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“Given my own family connections to the area I’m curious as to how long it will last.”
Your family are vandals?
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Cheap shot Factual, I’m only letting that comment stay in as a lesson to you.
The following may be of interest as well as educational: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals
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@factual,
As Irish Republicans we are all “vandals” in the eyes of Unionists when it comes to the so-called state of “Northern Ireland”. Is not one of our prime objectives to tear the place down and ground it into the dust?
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I don’t think the sign is offensive. The GFA recognises that NI exists and that to change it we make persuasive arguments for a UI. Tearing down signs is not going to do that.
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I’ll be shrouded in the grey mists on Monday and will be looking forward to seeing this sign welcoming me back to Norn Iron. Of course, I could just look at the different road markings, the change of speed limits or the beautiful blue skies above to know that I’ve headed back to a different country.
I was going to say civilisation but I’ve spent long enough in Jonesborough on Sundays to know that I’d be kidding myself and the rest of you!
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“I’ll be shrouded in the grey mists on Monday and will be looking forward to seeing this sign welcoming me back to Norn Iron.”
🙂 brilliant stuff………
Although I am marvelling currently at Ian Paisley junior with his forward looking vision and ambitions to be the next British Chancellor
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When I heard he’d be on QT I kinda knew he was going to make a comparison between the IRA and what happened at Woolwich.
Just a shame no one pointed out the Shankill butchers would have been a more accurate analogy.
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The Butchers and a whole lot of other loyalist gangs (and other loyalist bar patrons) who joined in the sadistic murders of Cathloics, kidnapped and taken to the ‘Romper rooms’ in the back rooms of loyalist bars).
The English had better hope they’re only dealing with a few fundamentalists who are willing to stoop this level of barbarity and not entire communities who will provide cover for it, as with the Shankill.
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Well Jnr. may be right in likening the Soldiers murder to the IRA’s attacks in Britian, in so far as the British Army were sent in to sort out the Natives, killed a lot of them, including women and children and then went home expecting not to be followed back and reprisal taken.
The savage use of knives and meat cleavers is common in Africa, beheadings seem to be in vogue in trouble spots in the Arab world and the fact that these ‘Woolich Butchers’ are born and bred Londoners, are all very shocking to our Western eyes, but the only thing that is really surprising, is that there wasn’t more of it during Blairs quest for Iraqi Oil.
Hopefully, it’s not a sign of things to come, but with the BNP and EDL ready to fill the void that the main paries have avoided, there could be dark days ahead.
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This thread isn’t really the place for it but I thought of the photo of Fr Reid kneeling over the bodies of one of the corporals in Andersonstown when I saw the images of the lady kneeling beside this soldier.
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They can find money for these deliberately provocative signs but Irish language signs are deemed to be “sectarian” and “intimidating”? So is this not “marking out territory”?
Oh the irony. From The Detail:
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Interesting. The policy regarding Irish language street signs is also revealing. If I am not mistaken it requires 80% approval?
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Indeed, a weighted majority vote of local residents is needed to erect bilingual English-Irish signage (and even then local authorities can stall or ignore the vote).
Though note, these are bilingual signs. There is no provision for Irish language signs only. And of course English language signs are the default option in 99.99% of cases.
Hardly democratic. But then given where we are talking about…
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lol, well put. The sign is still in place at time of writing. Why is there nobody fighting to a replace it with “fáilte roimh contae an Dun”?
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Deliberately provocative! As a majority of Catholics are now seemingly in favour of a union with GB it would appear only a minority of the Northern Irish might find it in as something they don’t like. Still its those who do the most shouting get noticed.
Pffft you’ll be saying Irish language signs or UlsterScots signs in mixed areas are ‘deliberately provoking’ next!!
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How does it provoke you? Does it make you angry or sad? Do you cry and get upset when you hear it spoken?
I doubt many Catholics would agree with your viewpoint unless you have evidence that suggests otherwise.
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Anewdawn are you referring to me? If so you misunderstand the point of my post. Irish language doesn’t provoke me when I hear it spoken etc doesn’t worry me at all. Saying a ‘Northern Ireland’ sign on the border is ‘deliberately provacative’ is like saying an irish language sign’ is the same, provactive – ie it isn’t, but only to a minority will it be construed as such, but its this minority who are the ones who take action and get noticed and give the impression their actions are representative of wider society.
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Your posting on this topic almost sounds like a challenge to someone living in the area to engage in criminal activity (ie to deface or damage the sign). You wouldn’t be advocating someone to engage in criminal activity would you BD, least of all some young impressionable lad in the area who has it tough enough trying to get on etc without a criminal record added to the list??
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I don’t see any challenge in BD’s post only an observation on the reality of erecting a sign with public funds with the purposeful intent of:
a) marking off territory on the island of Ireland as British and Unionist – or to put it in the wording that is actually intended: “Welcome to the British Occupied North of Ireland”
b) intimidating the local population by reminding them that they continue to live under the British Occupation (however threadbare that now is)
c) eliciting a direct response from the local population to facilitate further intimidation through the follow-up actions of an increasingly sectarian and unrepresentative paramilitary police force
If you are looking for a challenge I’ll present one for your consideration. I’m quite prepared to contribute money towards any group or committee from the Newry area that wishes to erect a large sign reading “Fáilte go dtí An Dún” or “Fáilte go Contae an Dúin” in the same vicinity as the road sign.
In the name of equality of course.
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This post does make me wonder as the police up there in NI are actually more religiously mixed than ever and getting more mixed each year according to the data.
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There was a big Unionist push recently to get rid of the quotas for the PSNI, are they still in place?
What is the Catholic % now ? Any idea what that would reduce to if you don’t count the English, Scots and Polish Catholics who were headhunted to massage the figures?
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Its now 30.4% Catholic and rising.
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That’s not a great improvement given the ceasefires were nearly 20 years ago. They haven’t even reached the quota reserved for Catholics in 1921 and they would have almost all been Irish Cathloics. They’ll need to keep the quota system for a long time at that rate.
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Used to be less than 10%
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a. it is acknowledging territory which is ‘Northern Irish’ and ‘Northern Irish’ . At no point do the signs mention UK, British, or unionist. Only in your head do the signs intend to say ‘British occupied North of Ireland’. Your imagination runs riot. The big majority of people in Northern Ireland including loads and loads of Catholics do not see it as ‘British occupied North of Ireland’ rather as legitimate Northern Ireland see recent polls. A lot of such people also signed up to the consent principle in the GFA recognising Northern Ireland.
b.it is again an acknowledgment of fact, again recent polls would suggest that the local population, even if majority Catholic, have a majority satisfaction with the current constitutional arrangements , so such people are hardly intimidated.
c. God knows where you get this from. So are you seriously saying the PSNI are sectarian and paramilitary? Are you not descending into troubles republican speak which doesn’t cut the mustard?? Even ex -IRA bomber Gerry Kelly on his recent away trip to Cardiff with the PSNI and other community leaders of Catholic and Protestant background had high praise for the PSNI for taking such an iniative to try to sort out the contentious parades issues and all the issues that go with such contention including the increase in sectarianism.
Good luck with the Irish language signs, I think its entirely reasonable to have such signs on the border though I think they should also translate as ‘Welcome to Northern Ireland’, would you consider putting Ulster-Scots in there?
Fact is as well, borders are of interest to tourists. Tourists generally like to know when and where they cross over from one country to another, and such signs will be helpful to tourists and will do their wee bit to market Northern Ireland as a place to visit.Its odd not to have them
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Talking of border polls here is the result of SF’s little experiment. 92% backing for Ui – bit low if you ask me considering the sample areas lol.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/small-border-poll-shows-support-for-united-ireland-1.1406844
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Encouraging. What was the turnout?
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1000 people voted according to the article. To be honest this poll is a bit of a joke considering the 2 areas chosen but I guess its a start. The reality is somebody needs to get all the pro UI parties together North and South and start to figure out the best way forward so a serious poll could be taken in 10-20 years time, the problem is SF cant attract the other parties on board and the other parties cant be bothered at the moment so no likely progress any rime soon
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I mean, what was the turnout as a percentage of those eligible to vote in it.
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One of the places is actually not in NI.
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I imagine they wanted to demonstrate that there is support on both sides of the border. I suspect however that is to mask the fact there is even less support in the south for the turmoil a UI , than there is amongst northern nationalists.
In my opinion, nationalism should be trying to consolidate support at the moment. The drift of support from the SDLP to Alliance and potentially the new soft U party is the biggest challenge to Nationalism. The SDLP need to get their act together to shore up support of the pale green nats. A border poll debate now, when the south is broke is only going to convince wavering Catholics think the Nat parties don’t know what they’re doing.
UI by 2016 is not realistic. 2026 maybe.
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Paul I think its not a great idea to put target dates up – its only a guess anyway.
I think that nationalism should be putting forward arguments for a UI and sketching out a practical model for a UI. Mary Lou got a great round of applause at the debate (on You Tube) when she said she wanted a “New Ireland” but she didn’t say what that means and in fact nobody has said.
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A good starting pointing would be to guess what kind of UI the protestant unionists would find acceptable (post a pro UI referendum result) – maybe a Federal arrangemnt etc. (I don’t think the South would go for rejoining the commonwealth) and then see what changes Carrickally and Alfiedale would make and maybe incrementally come up with a picture of something that could work.
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Yes to most of that except that a federal arrangement is out of the question; we have to be up front to unionists about that. We shouldn’t make promises that can’t be delivered.
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Well I don’t think anything should be ruled at before starting, in fact, things are likely to brought in during the course of such a process.
A Federation remember would work both ways in so far as it could be sweetener to Unionists in giving them a higher proportion of political power locally, but also a sweetener to the Southerners who could then avoid some of the comprimises that would have to be made (Orange Parades everywhere, Bank Holiday on the 12th, Union Jack beside the the Tricolour etc). Dublin after all has little to gain from this and there is not much appetite for the headaches and costs involved.
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Factual,
“a federal arrangement is out of the question”. Why exactly?
ps. Your point below,
“ID required to stop Unionists from Personating.”
Is truly hilarious coming from a SF supporter. You must be aware of the long “tradition” of voting early and often.
It is not a Unionist only issue….
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A federal UI is too costly. We do not need a lower legislative assembly and an upper one. Need to keep to realistic proposals.
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What if they say ” well it’s a Federal UI, Status Quo or Repartition”, what then?
Just because we’d have the Referendum in our back pocket, doesn’t mean that anyone who could force them into a UI – would do it. In fact, you can bet they wouldn’t. This is going to have to be an agreed solution and we’re not going to be able to dictate the parameters.
Anyway, if it’s a matter of cost, the EU are alwasy good for a few bob to keep the peace and the Brits will glad to pony up a hefty dowry to Dublin for taking their troublesome offspring off their hands!
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I don’t think people will be persuaded to vote for a UI because of federalism, if federalism means extra layers of government that are costly.
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Woaha Factual.
“A federal UI is too costly. We do not need a lower legislative assembly and an upper one. Need to keep to realistic proposals.”
We, by which I presume you mean an Irish Republic or a new Republic, Have an upper and a lower house under the terms of our constitution. It is part of the separation of powers under which the state was founded. Are you suggesting that is a bad thing? Do you support abolition of the Seanad?
As for your comment regarding layers of government, are you aware of the layers in the north eastern six counties for a population the size of south Dublin?
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bangordub
I see South Dublin is 265,205 and NI is shy of 2,000,000,
Stormont is not a good system. Its not desirable to have this additional layer retained in a UI. I don’t think even unionists would be that keen on it, given its costs. Better to use resources more efficiently.
The Seanad is fairly irrelevant to all this.
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Factual,
Perhaps I should have explained myself more clearly. The population of south Dublin is 265,174 as of 2011 census. The total Dublin population, excluding Fingal and Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, which may be described as greater Dublin, is 753,146. If you include them it is 1,270,603.
Dublin City Council manages to represent them at a local level. At a National level Dublin City is represented by the following revised boundaries and representation. http://www.constituency-commission.ie/docs/Map%20C%20Dublin.pdf
Belfast, in comparison, has 4 Mp’s, lots of MLA’s and multitudes of councillors.
We all know that the north has too many layers of government. What is your suggested alternative?
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I believe the turnout was 42% which isn’t too bad for a poll of this type. I think that its more a case of getting people thinking and talking about what a UI might look like. It doesn’t really need saying that a vote in Crossmaglen is going to give a slightly different result to a similar poll held in Carrickfergus…
I’m not sure that Gerry Adams banging on about a border poll is entirely helpful at this time, as there are a whole other load of factors that will come into play in the coming years. The outcome of the Scottish referendum is anyone’s guess, the 2016 NI Assembly elections could well result in First Minister McGuinness, and the swivel eyed loons may well get their way and see an EU Referndum held in the UK before the end of the decade.
Add to this the anniversaries of the Easter Rising, the First Dáil etc which will likely see parties in the Republic look to show off their Republican credentials, and once we get the results from the 2021 census things may well be changed, changed utterly in just ten years time.
‘Data’ from Star Trek The Next Generation put Irish Unification at 2024 and he may not have been far off!
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I have heard it said that 2023 is an important year: there won’t be a UI by then but there will be a much better picture (demographically, politically, economically) as to whether it is in fact likely and so in some ways its a determinative time for all in NI.
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Ah BangorDub, a schoolboy error there!!! The sign between Dundalk and Newry will never say Failte roimh Contae An Dun. It might hopefully though say Failte roimh Contae Ard Mhacha. There is no border between Co Down and Co Louth(until this Narrow water bridge happens)
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Feckitt, 😉
I stand corrected !
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No offence, but I hope no sign uses ‘roimh’ – it would mean something like ‘County Down is welcome’. ‘Fáilte go Contae Ard Mhacha’.
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Sadly thats the only victory that Armagh will get over the Dubs this year.
Does anyone think that SF will have the balls to try another Border poll in a much bigger community such as Newry and Dundalk?
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Why not organise one for the whole of NI? SF have the resources and the results would be very interesting.
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Thanks to whoever thumbed up me.
We could
*Invite international observers from all across the world
*Set up polling stations in local community centres in every town and village in NI.
*Send letters to all people on electoral register in NI inviting them to vote – sending a numbered voting card.
*ID required to stop Unionists from Personating.
*The counting could be done using volunteers drawn from across the community, hiring the Kings Hall in Belfast.
The voting could be done over two days to allow people time to vote.
Results to be declared only on a NI-wide basis so as to avert calls for repartition.
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Nice idea except for the fact that anything organised by SF will likely be boycotted by unionists. They would only come out in force to vote at the official referendum
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“A good starting pointing would be to guess what kind of UI the protestant unionists would find acceptable (post a pro UI referendum result) – maybe a Federal arrangemnt etc. (I don’t think the South would go for rejoining the commonwealth) and then see what changes Carrickally and Alfiedale would make and maybe incrementally come up with a picture of something that could work.”
That could make for an interesting topic!
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Carrickally,
It could indeed! It would certainly be interesting to have the discussion, which was precisely why the 1921 partition failed
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1921 partition, troublesome as it was, hasn’t failed. It has endured and has as much support within Northern Ireland than it probably has ever had.
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Alfiedale.
Your comment above illustrates what needs to be discussed and resolved. It (the Northern State) has failed. Failed completely. That’s why there was a need for a GFA and why we are still having rows about the blindingly obvious. I don’t respond to a lot of comments because they are either obviously right or astoundingly silly. (Not yours of course 😉 )
Even Carson didn’t want partition. I don’t believe for a minute the nonsense that most are happy with the status quo. Consider the current media consensus- Most People have no time for Stormont and Politicians/ Most People are happy with the constitutional status quo.
You get me?
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Spotlight poll? Consistent NILT survey? even the hintings of the census results?
I never said the people are completely happy with the current state of Northern Ireland there is certainly a lot of room for improvement in the functioning of Northern Ireland, but the big bulk do not wish to ‘throw the baby out with the bath water’, they wish to feed the baby, clothe it and gain a lot back in return.
That is where the real political discussion should be (and in fact this is where most political discussion is in reality – how to improve Northern Ireland and the lives of its people). Trying to steer discussion into a UI discussion is veering off course onto a road which the bulk of the people don’t wish to go, and deflects from real politics-jobs, public services, shared future and possible reforms of Stormont. Northern Ireland is moving on and away from the extremes (hence the decline in the vote similar to all stable western world countries, certainly its people are, we’re just waiting for the politicians to follow suit.
You keep bringing up things like Carson, 1921, partition etc. 1921!!! – to most in Northern Ireland today all this stuff is irrelevant it is merely the same old dogmatic republican reterick which doesn’t mean much to many people any more, couldn’t care less. a bit like what most think of a united Ireland – it belongs to a fringe.
I would invite you to discuss how you would like to see Northern Ireland improved further still from your perspective?
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Thats an interesting comment Alphiedale,
My core point is that it is the existence of the northern state and its governance that is at the heart of why people are not happy with where things are. My bringing up of matters past is relevant because the state was founded upon fundamentally undemocratic principles. (In my view).
I Disagree that most people don’t care about that. Unionism seems, to my eye, to be rather obsessed with the past, from 1690 in particular.
I do agree that we should focus on the future however.
However much, from a unionist perspective, there is a desire to constrain that to a purely six county viewpoint, it aint gonna happen from a nationalist perspective. Is Unionism ready to admit that yet?
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Two good points made by ad and bd above. I would like to see NI improved for all who sail in her and it can be made to work; we’ve made reasonable headway over the last decade and a half but, putting on a pretend-teacher hat, could do better.
Of course where we came from is vitally important. BD, you forget that not just 1690 but the year before (No Surrender) and 49 years previous (the original pogrom) are in the “folk memory” in the Unionist/Loyalist community.
Our wee country was founded on undemocratic principles – Ireland before 1886 (or even 1905) was not considered to be made up of two separate areas, Ulster and the rest. However, things moved on rapidly, as they did elsewhere in Europe, and to an extent there was an imperial precedent; the creation of Upper and Lower Canada in the last years of the eighteenth century to protect the settlement of one group (the Quebecois) over the potentially dodgy other (the Loyalists and late Loyalists from the former 13 colonies).
Perhaps the biggest chance for stability in Ireland vanished with the Border Commission. The transfer of land and populations was either a missed opportunity or the prevention of bloodshed – the experience of Punjab just over twenty years later would suggest the latter.
My plan A, like alfie’s, is the improvement of NI within the UK. To tell you the truth, a plan B doesn’t even enter my thoughts, I’ve spent the last five minutes trying to scan my brain for one and have come up for air! There is the opportunity for good-neighbourliness and the sharing of resources with our southern friends, for that is now what they are in the main proving to be (they are still burglars when it comes to the FAI, tonight is one of the few times I’ll be cheering for England!). However, the unionist perspective always places NI in a NI context, with the occasional glance across the water to the mainland. The nationalist perspective, I feel, also contains so much internal Ulsterist intent with a guilty shout out to what’s going on in Dublin or north Leinster.
Can nationalism admit that it is increasingly NI-centred (I’ll even let you use language such as “trapped, locked in a cage, cast adrift” if it will soften the ideological blow) and that could well account for the numbers who claim to be Northern Irish, like me, in the census returns?
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Carrickally,
I am sure you know who I’ll be cheering for in the pub later 😉
Indeed the very fact that I can do that in a Bangor pub is a sign of progress.
Your points above, I don’t want to get into an historical slanging match but suffice to say there are significantly different interpretations. I used 1690 merely as an example.
I agree with your observations regarding imperialism. Unfortunately there are a litany of countries where partition was employed as a “solution”, primarily by British Governments. You mention a very good example – Punjab. There are many others. I don’t think any of them worked out too well in hindsight?
I think the core difficulty in what you have written above, for me, is your reference to “the mainland”. That is, if you are referring to britain as opposed to mainland Europe.
It is a subservient term. I regard Britain as a neighbouring Island. One with which we have a relationship of equals.
As for the old chestnut regarding the FAI / IFA, don’t get me started ! Unionists just cannot seem to accept that a very sizeable number of people here (and how many exactly is one of the themes of this blog) give their alliegance to Ireland as they are perfectly entitled to do despite the unrelenting attempts over many years to change that.
It is a bit like the talk of “Chipping away” at the britishness of the North. Just reverse the situation and ask how you would feel if your nationality was denied completely or ignored.
In response to your question in the last paragraph, you may be right. There is possibly an increasing number of nationalists who view themselves as Northern Irish. I myself of course am a mere blow in 🙂 . I see little evidence of any change in voting patterns however, perhaps the two Macs new party will provide that evidence although somehow I doubt it.
PS: Excellent article from Belfast Media on the Census: http://belfastmediagroup.com/close-up-census-figures-are-revealing/
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“I think the core difficulty in what you have written above, for me, is your reference to “the mainland”. That is, if you are referring to britain as opposed to mainland Europe.
It is a subservient term. I regard Britain as a neighbouring Island. One with which we have a relationship of equals.”
While not wanting to cast myself as a house whatsnot, I don’t think we could ever be equal with an island that is much larger, more populous and generates a huge amount of wealth in comparison to us (as an island) and bails out the Northern part each year and bailed out the Southern part last year, as well as kindly writing off debts and providing a beautiful capital city for them as well (minus a few hollowed out shells, which intra-Irish fighting soon added to).
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Carrickally do you think that one thing the census did – with all the folks from both sides declaring they are NI – was to establish NI as a name that both sides are comfortable using? The term NI seems to be much more widely used than ever.
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Yes, I think we are getting there. Young people today do not seem to be afraid to live without labels, or, in this case live with a mutual label. They may want to further clarify it by the rest of their language (“mainland” or “parish” being two examples that creep into conversation with the sophisticates using the former and the ginger-haired bog-trotters using the latter, joke!).
There are generally shared NI institutions now – the PSNI being the main example that has the backing of the vast majority of people in NI, whether we think they are doing a good job or not.
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Carrickally,
By that logic I suppose we should all just become German?
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Becoming siebzehn und acthzehn bundeslander Deutschland mightn’t be a bad idea. Nordirland and Irische Freistaat would do rightly for names.
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Carrickally
You make a good point about making NI a better place. It seems that with NI pretty established – and more stable than it has ever been now is a good time to think about how you can go about making it better. Have you had any ideas for that?
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Join the south – that would do it.
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Is there a pot of gold at the end of that rainbow, with an Irish leprechaun to welcome us?
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There will have to be short-, medium- and long-term fixes. Unfortunately, government in close to broke so the long-term fixes are really just aspirations. Marty and Peter’s packages (oo, er!) are short-term and unless they have something to build on will just influence the lucky recipients for a few years to be nice to each other.
Any stable Western society requires employment, housing security and growing internal businesses. Our youth employment levels lead to a disconnect from society and too much time for heel kicking which, in our situation, turns nasty during the summer months. With housing repossessions, we’re creating a potential monster.
To a lesser extent, small businesses with big ideas are suffering because Stormont will only give rates relief on extremely low value units and have not provided any hardship relief in the Belfast area over the last two years at least. Rents are still based on NAVs, which are exorbitant. A friend showed me a small unit in Victoria Square, their rent and rates bill combined for one month is more than I take home after tax in a year. There will be news of a store closure there inside the next fortnight and that should really send alarm bells ringing in government, in a flagship centre that will celebrate its fifth birthday and has one fifth of its units empty.
These local businesses are providing local jobs and they equate to something like 90% of our business field. There is lipservice but little real support for them. Instead, big companies like Starbucks pay low wages and little corp tax but yet the lemmings on the street still stream to them. It’s all about mindset, I suppose, something that needs to be part of the govt. long-term fix and maybe links into that NI identity – if we cement an identity of our own, we won’t have culture snobs pretending to be Pacific Rim Americans?
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Factual, I actually asked the question of Bangordub- what is it about Northern Ireland he would like to see improved. I ask that of anyone.
BangDub – “My core point is that it is the existence of the northern state and its governance that is at the heart of why people are not happy with where things are”
This is where we are differing and its fundamental. I contest that people are by and large fine with the existence of Northern Ireland (the bulk of the people) and this is evidenced by consistent polls etc that I have made reference to. What is the evidence for your assertion that the existence of NI is making the larger number in NI unhappy??
Lack of quality functioning government, jobs, public services may be affecting peoples lives but this does not equate to the same people wishing to rid themselves of NI and the polls bear this out – despite the problems there is still the feeling and recognition Northern Ireland is better off in the UK and this is a cross community feeling. Its day to day functioning has to and can be improved though.
I disagree that the larger number of people in NI get wound up about things from 100 years ago, or things from 1690 for example. Such things are on a massively diminishing scale of importance to larger numbers of people, and to a sizeable chunk not important at all.
I think the troubles is more relevant to a bigger number, but even then I believe a large chunk are of the opinion ‘we both did wrong to each other’ and wish to move on- ie not undermine or hold back the development of life in NI, certainly not for their childrens sake.
Republicans and political unionism is obsessed with the past, its all they are good for. But I believe this is not accurately reflective of the Northern Irish population as a whole. Again half don’t vote and out of the other half a wee significant chunk vote Alliance and arguably other ‘perceived moderates’. I think the Sinn Fein and DUP carve up lends those two monsters to believe that very little exists outside their idealogical zero-sum pact, hence their dismissing of other parties. They are wrong.
May I ask BD why you think the new Basil McRea and John McCallister political iniative will not do much good? I actually hold out quite a bit of hope for this leap forwards. I think they are merely espousing a politik borne out by those cross-community polls etc to which I refer – it is from the trends which are going on naturally on the ground to which I referred from which they are taking their lead.
Republicans, trying to pretend there is support for a border poll, are going against these trends. The DUP, by tapping into old (but diminishing) unionist fears when they inflamed over the flag protest, were also trying to stem the trend away from the traditional things they bang on about. But both are going against the trend and both will ultimately fail. Perhaps they have already. The trend is towards a functioning Stormont, moderate, cross community , fair, pluralist, a live-and-let live Northern Ireland within an evolving and bettered union, and with good relationships with the south. DUP-SF cannot deliver this. A large chunk of the people are already ahead of the DUP-SF yesteryear politics, I hope Basil can give this trend a voice and speed it up.
A bold prediction, I believe the Basil party will gain a very significant foothold and influence in NI politics, and at the very least serve to moderate the behaviour and views of the nasty big 2.
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Basil and John are launching on Thursday at the MAC centre. The new party’s name will be revealed then. The party is pro-UK and for Northern Ireland.
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Twitter:
Basil McCrea @basilmccrea 3m
@Bangordub Yes, we launch 7pm Thursday 6th June at the MAC
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Good Morning,
Firstly an admin point: My ratings and thumbs features have vanished for some peculiar reason. Not the first time this has happened, the site settings are all present and correct, I’m trying to get it sorted asap. (UPDATE: Now fixed, if anyone has a problem let me know please)
Alphiedale,
I didn’t say the new Mc’Party wouldn’t do much good. I said I doubted if it would change voting patterns. I may be wrong but lets wait and see?
My point regarding the North related to two aspects that people are not happy with.
1. The state. By which I mean the constitutional position of the six counties.
2. It’s governance.
You have asked me for evidence. Well, at the last assembly election in 2011 over 41% voted for parties committed to changing that constitutional position and surely the dropping voting percentages overall, along with “Bel Tel” opinion polls etc, suggest that there is a poor opinion of the politico’s currently up on the hill?
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Yup, Bang dub have to wait and see about the Basil Party, I hope though- the current impasse can’t keep rolling on, change has to come from the middle ground rejecting SF/DUP.
That 41% – the spotlight poll gave evidence that quarter of SF voters and 56% of sdllp voters were not in favour of a UI. To vote SF, and in particular to vote SDLP, does not appear to equate to support for UI despite that being in those parties manifestoes.
I agree that there is poor opinion of Stormont amongst the people – that is a central point of mine as I highlighted previously. But the evidence does not translate dissatisfaction with the NI assembly , as wanting to scrap NI altogether.
The future is to fix the dysfunstion of Stormont. But I think that it is not so much the d’hondt system of government that is in place at Stormont which is the problem, more those who are operating it. Its not Stormont that needs rejecting, its SF/DUP.
D’hondt doesn’t lend itself well to government by two opposing extremes, but if 2 middle ground parties were sharing power there wouldn’t be the same problems at all.
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Alphiedale,
Just in from the match and read your post. It’s good and deserving of a full answer. I will do so in the morning. You’ve asked a few questions and I will respond, I look forward to doing so. I have no axe to grind with Basil and co, Indeed I wish them the best.
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Bangordub
Do you agree that Irish republicans and Irish nationalists should invite Basil McCrea’s party for round table talks to see if common ground can be made on reform to Northern Ireland?
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Bangordub
Do you think Basil McCrea’s party can make inroads into North Down/Bangor/Hollywood?
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Factual,
To answer both questions,
1. I think nationalists and republicans should talk to everyone with a contribution to make regarding progress in Northern Ireland. I think they already do.
2. I would imagine the new party will target the North Down area and the demographic would probably be receptive but as there are no policies or candidates yet it is a little early to make a call.
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Thank you. It will be interesting to see which personality they stand in North Down.
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factual it will be interesting to see who they get joining them – will they be established politicians or will it young up and coming who are not yet known?
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You might enjoy the latest opinion poll on my Blog BangorDub.
http://hoboroadpoliticalhighway.blogspot.co.uk/
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LOL Hoboroad, our favourite letsgetalongerist? Great Stuff, Mr Fitz will love it !
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Poll update:
1 Mick Fealty
2 Duncan Morrow
3 Ian Parsley
4 Quentin Oliver and Dawn Purvis
5 Robin Wilson and Andy Pollok
6 None of the above
Still no votes for Allan Leonard. Gladys no votes. No votes for the Rev Hamilton maybe they are all atheists. No votes for Professor Rick Wilford which surprises me considering his weekly TV appearances on the BBC.
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NILT survey on attitudes towards politics. Very positive for us espousing the unification of Ireland. For instance 77% of those who would vote against unification would live with/accept without rancor if the referendum result was for a United Ireland.
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2012/Political_Attitudes/FUTURE1.html
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In similar(ish) news, has anybody seen the front of the Newsletter today
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/number-of-unionists-at-record-low-research-shows-1-5163095
I know its possible to put any sort of spin you want to on a survey such as this, but I was surprised at the angle the Newsletter took on this story particularly in the run up to the 12th. Good news for Jasil/NI21 I should imagine – the 2016 elections are going to be interesting.
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Today, June 12th, I drove past the sign. It is somewhat disfigured.
The 1 month voters have it!
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Pic?
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Enda,
I’ll try and get one, it’s not the easiest spot to stop!
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