A Guest Post by Carrickally.
[In response to a suggestion in a previous post, Carrickally has kindly penned this very personal blog. I am conscious that it reveals a view of the Orange Order that may be somewhat at odds with my, and others, perceptions of the organisation so lets try to keep the comments up to their usual high standards. I hope it stimulates some thinking on all sides. nb: The pictures are my choices – BD]
I have written this in a personal capacity and from my own viewpoint. It is not an academic article and as such does not refer to research papers or articles.
What use is a collarette today? Orangeism in 2013.
First off, a little bit of personal background. I’ve been walking the 14 miles from Ballymacarrett to the Field and back again every Twelfth since I was seven. I carried the banner strings for the lodge my father, two brothers, uncle, grandfather and great uncle were members of. I received the bright Orange and Blue as a fifteen year old, a year younger than usual. I was Worshipful Master of the lodge by the time I was twenty-four, and have been Chaplain for approaching ten years now.
Family and tradition are therefore an important part of who I am, perhaps on a more subconscious level than I’d care to admit. My hobbies bear little difference to the world of my grandfathers – band, lodge, football but my work is much different, no yard or printers for me. Instead, thanks to the Education Act, my father was able to set up a little middle-class unit but one still grounded in the place whence we came. Family and tradition have a lot to do with that; my activities in leisure are quintessentially working-class and I fit rather uncomfortably into the social environment in my places of work.
My lodge is a mix of social types; middle-class, retired, working-class, unemployed, Glenmen and Bluemen. Our bond is our Reformed faith. Or is it? We meet every month as friends, discussing matters that need to be discussed, such as how we raise money to pay for a band, feed them and ourselves, pay for a taxi to carry equipment, refreshments and the occasional member who can no longer make the total distance on foot. We grumble at the levels above us taking money and try to set dues that are manageable to a small lodge of only 18 members – some of our neighbours are approaching 100 – and how to keep these at zero for the out of work and those in full-time education. Our minute books stretch back to the reign of Queen Victoria and little has changed in our items of business.
Apart from the admin, our focus is undoubtedly cultural. We want to be able to put on a show on the Twelfth, and to a lesser degree our District parade, the Somme Anniversary parade in East Belfast on 1st July. This year past we were able to welcome Orangemen and bands from across Ireland to East Belfast for the Covenant Parade. We are doing this for friends and family but also to show the wider community that we are vibrant. We do this by ensuring our banner flies proudly, our band is of good quality and well turned out, and how we look. Many wear lodge shirts, my Presbyterian thran-ness doesn’t agree!
in general, we are happy to let Schomberg House (short-hand for the full time officers) set the current agenda, which is outreach and charity work. However, we constantly make the point that there must also be a community involvement, especially in an area of high deprivation and low academic achievement like East Belfast. We are now moving to a position where our Hall is used for learning activities. This replicates what a lot of rural lodges already do, setting up literacy and numeracy classes in provincial towns. We are doing nothing radical, just following a pattern that has existed outside Belfast for twenty years and has been active in republican areas for much longer. Recently, light has been shone into the dark recesses of loyalism and one of the highlighted areas is a lack of education. A group such as the Orange Order, which contains schoolteachers and tutors, should be helping adults re-connect with learning and should be showing an example to children.
In 2013, The Orange places more emphasis on the work it does away from the Twelfth. Booklets for schools on history, for youth organisations and church groups are one aspect, as well as educating our own members about our history. Many years ago, it was supposed to be derogatory when people said King Billy was gay. Nowadays, that should be a golden opportunity to highlight a possibly gay icon, as most Dutch men seem to be. However, these are not newsworthy events and receive the scantest of coverage in the local weekly papers.
One thing that we can’t shy away from is parades, and it is why I mention it last. The Twelfth is the highpoint of our calendar. It’s our public face and to us it’s a celebration. In Belfast, we have made great strides with BCC and the PSNI to ensure that there are family friendly zones. Now we need to take the next step and make these zones a comfortable place for Catholics to come to. That’s more an issue for the crowd than the marchers but we have to set the example. That includes bands and I believe that playing religious tunes passing places of worship in a respectful manner is much better than a militaristic single drumbeat (we do that at the Cenotaph) or a rendition of the Sash.
Familial; cultural; religious. That describes the Orange Order to me in 2013. There are myriad other perceptions from within the Institution never mind the opinion of virtually every other citizen, either good or bad. We are an organisation that most have something to say about so it is very clear that we are not irrelevant, despite the protestations over the last few years. We haven’t gone away, we don’t wish to but instead we can reach in and reach out to make Northern Ireland a better place than it has been, something that we must shoulder the responsibility for as well.
"We in coming days may be" 
Very enjoyable article. A couple of things jump out at me. The OO should market better the charity and especially the community work it does, and expand this. Its good the halls are used for education – what else could they be used for and what else are they used for? I’m aware of one Orange hall well used for cross communitycrèche facilities.
I think a big avenue into the community is sport. Health levels are poor in inner east Belfast could the Orange Order organise (cross)community fun runs/5 mile races around areas people don’t usually go to for leisure eg Sydenham, shankill, sandy row have a kind of fun run championship??
The community work is highly important to the lifeblood and future of the organisation.
However, I feel this will be irrelevant unless the OO takes a much more robust and vocal stand against any sectarianism at events its associated with, eg passing Catholic church, behaviour at parades of individuals etc. There is a big role again for the OO in educating people as to the true liberal and pluralist meaning of Britishness. I feel the perceived inertia of the OO in taking a zero tolerance approach to sectarianism will undermine its expansion and revival and will ultimately undermine any much needed community development role.
The ‘contentious parades’ issue is one which needs resolved asap and it is certainly not all the fault of the OO, not at all. Certainly the OO should just adopt the policy of not walking through a major nationalist area where possible, but often geography and local circumstances are not so black and white – I’d put Ardoyne in this category where the local lodge literally just skirts a nationalist area. But the OO has to realise a riot has to be avoided at near-all costs due to the damage it does to the OO’s image and ability to move forward as an organisation into community development work and expand generally – ie it has learn to see the bigger picture and learn to be pragmatic and develop longer term high calibre consistent strategic thinking and not just blunder from one foul-up to the next.
Just a couple of questions ally – would you say many young people are joining the OO and bands to be able to continue sustaining it longterm?
And could youse not encourage more bands to go the pipe band route? there is no finer sound to raise the hairs on my neck. I do love seeing my local parade mainly because there is no tension whatsoever and it is always a lovely evening and shows that it can be a much loved institution if only it reforms and goes a better direction.Good Luck
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I like the idea of an active community; at a basic level, I’m barely able to move on 13th July, more because of the stop-start nature of the parade in Belfast rather than the length of it (I’m reasonably fit).
I’d say there are very few parades now that are through Nationalist areas, although I’ll no doubt have a raft thrown at me.
To answer your questions, the bandscene is huge and young. The DCAL Marching Bands study http://www.dcalni.gov.uk/marching_bands_study.pdf gives a figure of 650 bands or around 29,000 participants. Our band is old-style and doesn’t march anymore (contests and parks engagements are our norm) but there are only a handful like us. OO membership likewise seems to be getting younger from our nadir in the early noughties.
Pipe bands are massively expensive, hence why there are so few of them. However, I agree that they add something completely different and are one of the reasons why country parades are so much better than most of the urban ones.
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Hi carrickally,
Nice to get your thoughts on an organisation clearly close to your heart. I’m going to leave the political and cultural implications to others to comment. I wanted to mention a social consequence specifically education. We have now had a steady stream of reports, working groups etc. tell us over the past few years how educational underachievement is more prevalent, as you mention, in protestant working class areas. This is still in spite of the worst off wards still being mostly Catholic areas of West and North Belfast and Derry. Clearly one communities children are not born more academic than another so what is the reason? The oft mooted reason is usually given that the easy jobs for the boys at the shipyard mentality has remained despite the jobs being long gone and no history of higher education being valued. This may be partly right. But these jobs have been long gone and people have had years to readjust. Yet if the screaming headlines are anything to go by , prospects are getting worse for young Protestant men.
You mention how the orange order is using some lodges for numeracy and literacy classes which on the surface appears commendable. However I sometimes wonder if there is a practical timing issue around much of this. To prepare for the 12th parades, the 11th night and the plethora of other feeder parades etc.. requires a huge effort on the part of the young 16 year old lad eager to prove himself as a valued part of his community. He will attend every band practice, knock on every door in the estate to raise funds, make sure all his gear is in order, help collect all the necessary material for the bonfire and much more besides to make sure he’s doing his bit over the preceding months. Unfortunately, those months happen to be the ones were GCSE (or A-Level) exams take place. Given that he has invested all his time and effort into supposedly being a good member of his community hasn’t left much in the tank for his exam studies. So my question is could the whole 12th actually be playing a detrimental part in these young lads development? While noble, your classes may be too little too late for many of them.
My interest was raised in this issue as on hearing these reports I inspected my own research group that I was until recently completing my PhD in semiconductor research at a university in London. The group’s N. Irish contingent were entirely from the Catholic community background including the group leader who is also number 2 in the whole of the college and among the top 1% cited scientists in the world. I thought if that was the case here, what must that say about Belfast?
I would like to hear your thoughts on the issue and if you have any alternative reasons for this problem I’d be very interested in hearing them.
Charlie
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I was in the middle of a great reply there but accidentally closed the tab! In brief, the literacy and numeracy problem needs addressed in schools and that is where the focus should be; however, we have a large section of the adult population who are functionally illiterate and poorly skilled in basic maths. This needs tackled and in a way, it is easier to work with adults who realise that they now need even low levels of education. Trying to get them to that realisation is the difficult bit.
To tell you the truth, I believe that the major issue with boys and schools is the lack of male role models; most male teachers outside secondary schools are middle class, married and practising Christians. That doesn’t tick any of the boxes of boys from age 9-16. There needs to be more of an investment in stopping the boys from getting bored – if that means an increase in hands-on and sporting activities, I’m all for that as this sort of diversion often leaves space for learning as well.
The interest in Northern Catholics’ electrical devices is certainly, um, interesting. Bar being facetious and talking about wiring schools in south Armagh, I have nothing to run with there!
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Ally,
All that education stuff sounds very commendable. Then you realise its for Prods only!
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I know! You’d almost think I was talking about an organisation whose membership is made up entirely of those who are of the Reformed faith!
Just as well we don’t discriminate in who receives money from those charities we support.
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To tell the truth i’m more interested in the political unionism of Orangeism.
Or maybe Orangeism in a setting were political unionism/toryism has collapsed.
The main places being Glasgow/Liverpool/26 counties.
I could/should add Derry/Belfast to that list.
Anywhere really outside of County Antrim and half of Down.
Taking political power from members of the Orange Order leaves it where exactly.
A group of slightly dodgy parades by people who have a problem with the RC church.
As such i might even agree with that.
Maybe in the 21st Century we’ll see Orangemen in numbers voting SDLP just the same as Orangemen in Glasgow and Liverpool vote Labour.
Well the red, white and blue working class Tory vote died in those cities decades ago.
A chap called David Seawright, brother of the murdered ex DUP councillor George Seawright wrote at length on the very subject.
Who do Free State Orangemen vote for?
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On the mainland, the support for Conservatives in Orange circles was strong, as you point to with Glasgow and Liverpool. Whenever the Tories moved explicitly from a limited (almost Liberal) form of social concern to outright Thatcherism, that’s when the point of no return was passed.
I’m not a Tory, my great grandfather was a Red and socialism is strong in our family so I’m not best placed to comment on it.
You’ll find that Orange membership in Belfast has always been low compared to West of the Bann – interestingly this was also the case in terms of recruitment to the 1913 UVF.
I’ve no doubt that there is political influence exerted by the Orange; it is, after all, an organisation larger than most trades unions in Ulster. On an individual basis though, I have yet to gain any advantage through being an Orangeman – not even a job in the Yard!
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“Who do Free State Orangemen vote for?”
Fitzpatrick, D. (2002) ‘The Orange Order and the Border.’ Irish Historical Studies, 33, pp. 52-67
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/30006955?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21102230474957
I’ve given this a separate reply in case you can’t access the link. Fitzpatrick’s study confirms Independent Protestant representation in Cavan and Monaghan up to the 1940’s, followed by decline in numbers that could return a candidate. It doesn’t say where the votes went to after this but I think it’s safe to assume that FF would not have received them.
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So why is Carrick Ally in an east Belfast lodge?
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Thanks for the link, Carrickalky.
Your correct about the OO membership being greater than trade union membership.
The OO has also seen out political ideas ie the Soviet Union or at a more local level the NI Labour Party.
Looking at the stats for East Belfast in the 40s, 50s, 60s makes me wonder did a section of Orangemen in EB vote for the NILP.
Thought i read somewhere that David Irvine parents were NILP voters.
Maybe there,s a future for a Left leaning party that could bring working class Protestants onboard.
Even more so if the constitutional question is parked for the time being.
There must some OO members who maybe privately think the present representation they get from unionist politicos is below par.
I fail to believe every OO family is doing just fine financially.
Even in the most desperate times, early 1930s, the Scottish Orange strongholds of Bridgeton and Larkhall votes for the Independent Labour Party.
Even today in 2013 both areas return Labour/SNP councillors.
And the Larkhall area must have a catholic population a lot smaller than Bangor so that would leave me thinking Orange families in the area are voting possibly even SNP.
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Should point the out the present day Tories in Scotland official name is the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party.
They changed their name in 1964 from the Scottish Unionist Party.
Candidates stood as Unionists.
The union in the name did not refer to the union between Scotland and England strangely enough.
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Carrickally,
Very informative piece.
I was recently speaking to an elderly (Protesant) lady who was considering going to the local Orange hall for night classes and couldnt help wondering if there is any evidence of Catholics attending such classes? I presume they are ‘allowed’ (should they wish) to attend. But this is an excellent community work/service that the OO deserves credit for.
I would not in any way consider myself a fan of the Orange Order but respect the views of many such as yours and I think that work in this area of community involvement – is something that both sides of the community can buy into – but I remain deeply sceptical and indeed (if I’m honest) antagonistc to the idea that poltical marches celebrating victory over ‘my’ tribe can in any respect be considered ‘inclusive’. That, my good (Orange) man is a very difficult – if not impossible ‘sell’.
BD, Well done for having a Prod about the place – the Fenian-love-in can get on one’s mammaries.
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Sammy,
Get down the Orange Hall and put in your application. Tell them you’re a ‘Fenian Uncle Tom’ and you wish to shine their shoes. You were talking about yourself, right?
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Is David Trimble still a member of the OO?
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Maybe FJH could answer this being the “senior” blogger.
Would it not be the case pre troubles that some Orange Halls were used for public social events ie dancing.
Take anybody was welcome if they paid the entrance fee.
Also wouldn’t Orange halls been let out for wedding receptions and the like.
Doubt anybody would question your religion if you turned up at a keep fit class in Bangor Orange Hall.
Seems there might be nothing new in what Carrickally says about opening up the local Orange hall to community events.
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PT,
RE. “Seems there might be nothing new in what Carrickally says about opening up the local Orange hall to community events.”
I was just hoping to clarify the actual positon – I would suspect that Orange Halls are open to any denomination – but perhaps under certain cirucumstances – and perhaps that changed at some point in history. It would be benefical for the OO to be more public about their availalbility if there are no ‘restrictions’ – but equally the reverse would also be undoubtedly true.
Lets us await word form the (Orange) man himself.
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I know that Mossley Orange Hall has yoga classes and things like that, Tai-Bo etc. I’m pretty sure they also have/had a church group or bible group that meets/met in there. That would probably be the one that would cause the most difficulty in our Hall because of the potential to be seen to be associated too much with one grouping/sect.
I would doubt you’d be able to have a GAA meeting in a Hall although I wouldn’t be surprised if, say in rural areas, something happened to a parochial hall that it wouldn’t be offered for use if there are close relations.
Some Halls have bars in them; Alexandra Park Avenue does. We tried, back in the 90’s, to no avail.
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PT As I understand it dances, plays, concerts etc were very common place in Orange Halls pretroubles especially in rural areas – my parents met at such an event and my uncle ‘crept the boards’ at many an Orange Hall in fact I think they basically toured Orange Halls and church halls at a time putting on amateur plays.
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that’s very interesting about bars in Orange Halls – what do the temperance lodges make of that?
I’d think a bar in an Orange Hall would be hard to get off the ground. There is too many competitors in the Royal British Legions, cosy clubs, social clubs, football clubs etc before even get onto your average privately owned bar.
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Don’t know if it counts as an Orange Hall but i’ve been a tour of the “Mem” in Derry.
For historical purposes only in case anybody thinks i was looking over the joint.
Well worth a visit if your up that way.
Come to think of it i’ve also paid a visit to Dan Winters cottage in Armagh years back.
Pretty stern looking woman seemed to in charge of the place.
Mentioned the lady to a friend and his answer was, “don’t worry she’s a face reader”.
Scary thought.
Think there was some dispute about Dan’s house being the real deal.
Whats the script with Boyne Valley site, did they ever build a visitor center?
Newgrange was worth a look but you can’t help thinking your on the site of the Boyne.
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.. and I was in the Orange Hall in the folk museum outside Belfast.
The exhibits/display on Police in Ireland (pre and post partition) in the museum is very good and very balanced – I suspect those opposed to the ‘shrine’ in the Long Kesh/Maze will have serious diificulty with similarly balanced wording unless the DUP et al can get one of their number to do the job.
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Not a bad day to be a non Tory East Belfast Orangeman.
Out for the May Day March with your fellow workers although the Left were always hopeless at the parading thingy.
Too much of the anarchist in them me thinks.
And not forgetting watching Glentoran win the Cup against Cliftonville.
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GLENTORAN FOREVER BLESS ALL THE MEN IN GREEN RED AND BLACK YYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!
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This post deserves the first reply of the night! 😀 My shins are now damaged but my heart is leaping like the salmon that haven’t been seen near the industrial Connswater in two hundred years!
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PT, I haven’t been at the Mayday parade in town now since 2002 (I think). Always used to be a good day, our band marched – a longstanding engagement that was in the end frowned up by some of those in power in Transport House – who didn’t realise that we were there for many years and that was a follow on from my red great granda.
Went with my two boys to the Oval this morning, enjoyed a family atmosphere, dropped them off with my mum and headed into town on the train with my dad, picking up big brother 1 on the way and into the North Stand. Knew it was our day as soon as the equaliser went in.
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It was an unbelievable day Ally just shows the appetite that exists for Irish league football when the occasion is big enough. 2nd half performance was fantastic which carried into extra time. In the end we walked it. Am still on a high after that, hats off to the players I especially thought Richard Clarke had a great game before the sending off.
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I think the biggest problem that the Orange Order has is that there effectively two types of Orangeman. The Nice and the Not-So-Nice.
And Drumcree really brought it to a head.
Ultimately Nice Orangemen made a decision to go down the same road as their Portadown brethren.
As to uses for Orange halls…I know that circa 1970 one was used for a beauty contest and my cousins girlfriend came second. Neither would have been qualified to be members.
and certainly I know that one Orange Hall was often used as a venue for Collectors Fairs including militaria. I confess to considering some graffiti … ” Patrick Sarsfield was here” but thought it would not respect my hosts.
As a person interested in Jacobite history, I have been a guest in a couple of Orange Halls as there have been some interesting exhibits etc.
The old chestnut that an Orange Hall was opened up to American forces in WW2 and was used for a Sunday Mass…and was later ” fumigated” raises its head every so often.
The nearest comparison I can think of is American whites who comemorate the Confederacy …it is a broad church within clearly defined limits.
Necessarily there are no blacks involved.
Some…indeed many who comemorate this are not themselves racist and would be appalled at the thought and embrace the notion of Heritage Not Hate. On the other hand many use the “history” often a family history as a cloak for a racist agenda.
I think the same has to be said of the Orange Order…..a broad “reformed” church where many celebrate civil rights…but equally true that some use it as a cloak for naked sectarianism.
The extent to which the Orange Order can be accomodated depends largely on their own behaviour…behaviour going past churches, the nature of kick the Pope bands, voluntary re-routing.
There is a legitimate point here that Orangemen can use arterial roads such as Crumlin and Ormeau but they cant base it onan exaggerated sense of entitlement (The Queens Highway), tradition or a feeling of occupation with flags and militaristic bands…much better if they did it in a more generous spirit.
We tend to delude ourselves about shared space…in Norn Iron space is unequally shared. Unionists and Orangemen object to designated days for flegs. The default position with them is that shared space like the flagpole on the City Hall is not quite equally shared.
Until there is a REAL recognition of the meaning of shared space, then I think I am entitled to object to orange arches at the Cuts in Banbridge or in the Square in Lisburn. This is frankly not a “culture” that I wish to accomodate.
The notion that this is a culture under threat is risible.
Although I wish it was under threat.
We talk about Conflict Resolution….but how actually can we have Conflict Resolution to a war that nobody actually won. The Confederacy ws defeated in 1865….Restoration followed.
Nazi Germany lost in 1945….anti nazi camps wereset up.
South Vietnam lost in 1975…jungle reeducation camps set up.
Circa 1970 the Ku Klux Klan lost the American Civil Rights debate…
Conflict Resolution can only work when somebody wins and somebody loses.
I will tolerate the Orange Order when they change….or when they are defeated.
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Happy enough with most of your points in the first half of your statement. However, we have a tradition of military bands, stretching back to my own (when the Confederacy was still an entity that may have held off the North). If you’ve ever seen Omagh PB (based on the Royal Marines) or the Ulster Volunteers Regimental band, or Blackskull from Scotland (WW1 modelled), or a more modern take on it, Mourne YD, you’ll see just how important that aspect of our culture is. It’s a refined and practised version of “Kick the Pope” bands and I’d go so far as to say that they are better than what you’ll see on Trooping the Colour or the Edinburgh Tattoo. The pipe bands here obviously speak for themselves.
I think Orange arches are likewise an important part of our culture but one that has disappeared in many areas due to many causes, not least transportation issues and road widening – Whiteabbey used to have an arch until buses went double deckered in the 1930’s – but also population displacement – Malt St up to 1971 on the Grosvenor Road.
How do we negotiate a peace (shared space) when you still think we have to be defeated?
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FJH, my father’s family were all baptised and married in the Drew, they lived originally in Theodore St in the lower Falls after moving to the big smoke from Lisburn, then across the Grosvenor to Clifford St and then Burnaby St before moving east.
Passivity is the best description of what we’ve got as I’ve heard. I happen to agree with you, historically peace cannot be guaranteed until there is a vanquished.
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My father was born in Burnaby Street. As I understand it, at the time May 1918, the demographics were roughly equal. Some years later the Catholics er….left.
My Aunt was born during a gun battle at Peters Hill.
But from around 1923 until my aunt moved out 1983…the family lived in a street near the Broadway Presbyterian Church.
In my childhood, I recall Orangemen parading up Broadway to that church without comment.
This might be interpreted as the Catholics not minding much OR alternatively not being permitted to mind. At some point in an earlier troubles (I do not know the year but my uncle who was several years older than my father always claimed to have seen it) the verger/ caretaker of the church was shot dead in cold blood.
Years later I would become quite friendly with Rev Ray Davey who had been the minister at that church.
The Church Building is now An Culturlann on the Falls Road. Not unaware of the irony…I go there quite often….I am actually disappointed by that change. It is not something that I like to see.
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I certainly recall the arch in Malt Street, the bonfire on waste ground in Elizabeth Street, the Orange parade to Drew Memorial on Grosvenor Road and British flags at the Grosvenor Road end of Devonshire Street…occasionally watched over by a bored RUC man from Cullingtree Road barracks.
We have the situation that we have ben given Passivity (I wont call it Peace) thru the big lie of Creative Ambiguity. Notwithstanding some issues such as power sharing and the RUC being abolished are now banked…other issues have not been addressed ….and St Andrews effectively destroyed the GFA.
For me Passivity is enough.
Peace…tragically…can only come withone side crushing the other. To be honest, I would hate that..but if it happens Id rather see things like sectarian organisations crushed or marginalised.
As I have openly stated, I dont think there should be a problem with Orange Order using arterial routes…with the proviso that its not about triumphalism. Sadly their behaviour means they need to be quarantined for a while. And each bandsman urinating against a Catholic Church delays it further.They have to learn some manners before Catholic residents can really accept the whole Christian men and Culture thing.
Malt Street of course was not an arterial route.
The Cuts at Banbridge and Lisburn Town Square are on arterial routes so the whole shared space thing tends to fall down if Orange men think its part of their culture tao put one up for a month every year. Unless of course you believe nationalist culture should be so represented.
As Ive said the Orange Order have a very peculiar view of shared space.
At its worst…the Orange Order panders to the worst of sectarianism and it should be no part of a nationalist agenda to facilitate it.
Conflict Resolution should not be about apportioning everything on a 50:50 basis ( even if Orangemen could abandon their sense of entitlement).
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Amazing for all the fault lines that exist in PUL community, class divisions, blue bag brigade v middle class, urban v rural, 57 varieties of the term Protestant, churched v unchurched, plus the various loyalist factions that the OO keeps going decade after decade for over two hundred years.
Plus it’s managed to keep going in areas were there is no logical threat.
Bangor being the case in point.
Can anybody name anything else that lasted nearly so long other than religion or the military.
I asked somebody this question years ago and their answer was…. railways.
And the OO beat that by 40 or 50 years.
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carrickally,
re. “I know that Mossley Orange Hall has yoga classes and things like that, Tai-Bo etc. I’m pretty sure they also have/had a church group or
bible group that meets/met in there.”
Are you confirming that the Orange Order has no regulations debarring entry to Catholics to Orange Halls? Was there ever such a ban?
re. “I think Orange arches are likewise an important part of our culture
Have you got any good links to details of ‘arches’?
alphadale
re. “As I understand it dances, plays, concerts etc were very common
place in Orange Halls pretroubles especially in rural areas”
Any anecdotals about cross community involvement?
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On entry into Halls, I’ve never been asked for my “credentials” when I’ve gone in – usually because I’m either going in a band uniform but also to other events as a paying guest when I’m in civvies. I would say that anyone going into a Hall for an event is welcome if they have a ticket or have paid at the door or (in the case of those with bars) they are buying!
By details of arches, do you mean their history? If so, arches have been used for ceremonial processions for centuries, on both sides here and in England, across the Empire and not just from the British side. There are arches on the approaches to many of the villages in Punjab, usually in memorium to a notable worthy who has died.
Arches were a way of decorating streets in the city, or villages and towns and, like bands now have a rivalry, archbuilding streets had a similar rivalry.
On cross-community involvement and while not an Orange Hall, our bandhall frequently hosted movie nights that were used by all people in 1950’s Whiteabbey.
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carrickally,
re. “By details of arches, do you mean their history?”
Yes, and I was also thinking about examples of large well construced ones – how big and how long to make and (take down) etc – any good pictures?
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Well I doubt they went out of the way to invite the Catholic church or GAA club or AOH from over the hills but my mums friend (Catholic) went along so there was probably informal mixing.
Then again quite a number of Catholics attended my mums village state primary school as the teacher had such a good reputation so that area was more genuinely neighbourly and mixed than probably others – an argument for intergrated education. Come to think of it I remember there were a couple of mixed marriages round there.
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FJH, interesting as usual on the historical side.
Often wondered about the Baden Powell story.
The one about entering the Falls Rd pub on a horse.
The pub, i forget the name of it, was i think at the top Broadway on the opposite side of the road from what would have the then Broadway Presbyterian Church.
Take it the area was pretty mixed originally maybe more Protestant.
Was there ever an Orange Hall facing the present day Felons club?
And the biggest question of all.
Were Falls Rd Catholics subdued to the point of passivity.
Croppies Lie Down.
Or Else.
It was after all the Orange State.
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A branch of my family lived at Fruithill in whats now Andytown and went to that Presbyterian church. They were ‘exited’ at the start of the troubles, my elderly relative tells of cars being vandelized whilst they were at church and general sectarian nastiness including their house being focussed upon for stones and rubbish in the garden so they had to get out and went to Windsor – the ‘polarisation’. But before the late 60’s they recall a very pleasant existence and would have used the Falls road as their main road into town, often walking the entire road and using all the local shops and being friends with many. The same relative recalls going to Catholic church with her friends and knew the priest and then bringing her Catholic friends to her church activities.
Rem Belfast was very different as no Westlink effectively acting as a peaceline and the communities were much more blurred, so it was harder to say where one ‘community’ or area ended and another began. There often wasn’t the big estates on the edge of town, most Belfast folk lived in whats now considered inner Belfast. One of the relatives lived near Dunville Park (but again a short walk to the Village) and remembers getting the train to Lisburn ‘all green fields’ from before Finaghy. There were Catholic families living in Lower Shankill again a short walk to Falls or New Lodge. I understand that pigeon fancying was a big hobby back in those days and the scene was very cross community, one areas pigeon club would go back and forth to another areas pigeon club and the clubs were often mixed anyway. The pigeon club in Lower Shankill so I hear were great mates with one in the New Lodge.
Is the pub now called the Beehive or is it the ManchesterUnited one just opposite?
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Carrickally
Excellent post – really interesting to hear your perspective. I do think that a lot of the people who live in Northern Ireland have too often a “caricature” vision of each other in their minds. You do a lot in your piece to help those of a nationalist bent up there to see how you are.
At my Dalkey school we had an exchange with protestants from NI and it did help to dispel some of our stereotypes. We were all asked to write a composition about the encounter afterwards and everyone in class said the same things: that the protestant people we met had a narrative that was perfectly sensible and that are to be admired.
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I have to admit I’m from a lower mid Protestant background and Ally’s post have given me a kick up the backside from lapsing into sterotyping the OO. Has made me remember lots of little quirks about them, funny as 2 of my uncles are members. I guess its an example of how negative aspects can completely overtake and wipe out any positive aspects. Also funny as I robustly argued against the stereotyping of Protestants on this very website, something which I felt this website has casually slipped into. Even subgroups can have subgroups
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Factual, I don’t know that people in Northern Ireland have any more of a stereotyped vision of each other than people from Dalkey do of people from Ballymun.
There are aspects of Unionist/Loyalist culture that people from a Nationalist/Catholic background find distaseful but I don’t think that there are many who would tar all Protestants with the same brush. Likewise, I don’t think there are too many Protestants who consider that all Catholics are fully paid up members of the IRA. News reporting being what it is, the ‘silent majority’ never really merit a mention…
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“Factual, I don’t know that people in Northern Ireland have any more of a stereotyped vision of each other than people from Dalkey do of people from Ballymun.”
I don’t know about that. I watched a documentary by Michael Ignatieff (I think) recently where he went into different (working class) neighbourhoods in NI and asked them about “the other side” and it really didn’t seem that there was an equivalency with anything south of the border.
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I font ever recall an Orange Hall on the Falls Road or a Protestant church in the Fruithill area. There is still so far as I know a church at the corner of Suffolk Road and Stewartstown Road.
and in the eraly 1960s there was a mission hall at Scotland Place…long since redeveloped ….which was in the Divis-King Street area.
There was another church at the corner of Albert Street-Raglan Street.
And there was a mission hall in Elizabeth Street…a street which was predominantly Protestant which ran from Grosvenor Road to Albert Street.
The streets below Cullingtree Road on the Grosvenor Road were predominantly Protestant in the 1950s, mixed after that .
I would not get too nostalgic about how brilliant it all was in the 1950s and 1960s….”ach shure didnt we all get along great?”……theres the passivity, croppy le down factor and the fact that we were children.
There were plenty of mixed streets in and around the Groavenor Road… I lived in one of them….and it is certainly true that our football team circa 1965 when I was about 13 played in most of the city parks.
but ultimately it was a time when Catholics knew their place.
There was a certain protocol to living in a mixed street.
We went to different schools, different churches, had different social networks but there was an unwritten rule for example about playing football on the street on the Sabbath.
While the number of British flags declined in the 1960s, I think this recognised that the street was changing. The dynamics of living in Leeson Street ( Catholic) was different from Roden Street (Protestant) and a lot of mixed streets, Conway Street, Cupar Street had awkward little bits in the middle.
Remember the Troubles broke out when I was 17 and living there.
I had been a child and probably only aware of real life in Belfast from I was about 12.
Yes there is a factor that says….didnt Catholics shop on the Shankill….but its over-stated. The best contribution is Mary McAlease…a cople of years older than me, who said in an interview some two decades ago that her generation …ie my generation…could not understand and were even embarassed by the passivity of our parents.
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No the Presbyterian church they went to was the one in the Falls that closed down and became the Irish culture centre, I was referencing a previous post.
Catholics didn’t just shop on the shankill they lived on the shankill
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The Rev Dr Paisley read their addresses out at rallies. Evil man.
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I have been asked why Carrickally has been provided, on a broadly republican blog, with a platform to say his piece on the Orange Order.
I believe the answer is self evident above but for the avoidance of doubt I’ll lay out my reasons.
I have clearly stated on a number of ocassions that I welcome views from all sides. I am a republican. I actually believe strongly in that philosophy. I value the views of all the people of Ireland, even if I don’t share them. To quote:
“The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts, cherishing all the children of the nation equally”
I doubt the Orange Order could argue with much in that.
This is a really interesting thread in my view and although I’m unlikely to join the local Bangor lodge anytime soon I believe Carrickally has probably achieved more with his excellent article above and his responses to the comments than the OO “Head office” has done in 70 odd years.
He has certainly made more sense than they have. He has also done a simple thing well. He has engaged.
I should share with you that the readership of this piece is currently off the scale by the standards of this blog.
Perhaps there is a lesson in that?
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BD,
re. “I have been asked why Carrickally has been provided, on a broadly republican blog, with a platform to say his piece on the Orange Order.”
Delighted to hear about the readership – it is a touch ironic that as I’m asking the boy carrickally about the permission/ease of Fenians entering Orange Halls others should be questioning yourself about the fact that an Orange Prod is entering this fenian internet territory.
It just shows how virulent and adatable ‘triablism’ is to the changing times.
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Very sad ghettoised mentality. People in NI should be hearing more views from over the wall not less.
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On the paradeing issue it hasn’t been mention the number of Orange/Loyal Order Parades over the years that have led to serious disorder.
Carrickally paints a picture of his small private lodge and band marching out on Saturday/Sunday morning causing no offence to anyone.
Then reality kicks in.
The wrong time at the wrong place with the wrong numbers and the whole thing could explode.
August 69 in Derry proved that.
The only saving grace in this is that demographics have changed the political landscape.
The parades don’t look so triumphant when the local pesky RCs on the council decides what day your Fleg goes up.
Can you imagine telling the 1963 Orangemen marching into that Falls Rd church “oh btw, 50 years from now the flag on city hall will be down and see the local IRA unit out there on the Falls Rd.
Well they’ll be virtually running the place.
And oh, this church your in will be a centre of learning for the Irish Language”.
People can live with the odd parade.
Even better when there’s no link between the parade and political power.
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My aunt lived in Comber for 2 years and she said that the local Orange Hall held gymnastics and Irish dance classes for local children.
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Factual, when was that?
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A couple of years ago. She is now back south of the border.
I just did a google search and saw that this seems to go on today in various orange halls.
For example this news story from 2008 says in the third paragraph “Irish dancing classes have resumed” as the Edenderry Orange Hall is reopened, after a refurbishment. So it suggests its a fairly routine matter.
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edenderry is the one with much utilised cross community crèche facilities, I do believe. If not edenderry then somewhere round there
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Click to access Dec2008Edenews%5B2%5D.pdf
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Factual,
re. “So it suggests its a fairly routine matter.”
thanks. That is a positive for the OO.
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sammy, I had a great picture of the Whiteabbey arch on my computer up until last week but my hard drive died. Will try to get it off my great-uncle and scan it in again.
It’s interesting to hear the asides about southern working-class areas too. It’s not really something that I think about (likewise in English big cities too), of how different or similar our urban splits are.
As FJH says, every generation are different. I wonder did the generation before him feel cut adrift by the southerners and work on the basis that heads down was the best approach? Then his generation (like counterparts of that age around the world) forced the issue through questioning, haranguing and, in a minority of cases, through violence – that’s not meant to be a derogatory comment. The next generation continued that and across our divides became very anti-establishment. What of the new generation? A bunch of lazy sods? I don’t know.
It is accepted that NI was a cold house and change was needed. One of the big “what if’s” was O’Neill. Without a militant Paisley, could he have changed things? I personally think he, like Trimble, was reaching too far and too fast for his followers and community, even though he was doing the right thing.
BD, thanks for the opportunity to post on here and to respond to the comments. I’ve felt pretty welcome since I started posting on your blogs, perhaps I’m your Hun Uncle Tom? In the words of the late, great Alan McDonald, if anyone has a problem, come and see me!
PT, my wee lodge would only be offensive if we started singing the Queen; we’re such bad singers that we made the decision about a dozen years back to stop singing it at the close of our meetings. The sniggers were just too much!
I hope I’ve addressed everyone who has commented on my replies. I’ve found it difficult to respond to each one so have tried to work down the list after reading the responses so apologies if I’ve forgotten someone.
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Thank you very much for posting.
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carrickally,
re. the Hun Uncle Toms(HUTs).
I have to say is would start to get very confusing if the number of HUTs outnumbered the number of actual huns and/or the the number of FUTs outnumbered the number of actual Fenians.
re. “sammy, I had a great picture of the Whiteabbey arch on my computer up until last week but my hard drive died”
re. “like bands now have a rivalry” They seem pretty elaborate affairs- where is Whiteabbey in the pecking order?
Presumably East Belfast with access to the shipyards and with the skilled workers must have had a bit of an advantage back in the day?
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Our bandstands were made during down-time in the Yard. I know that most modern arches are basically two lamp-postesque structures stuck into solid foundation holes in pavements and then the top cross-section slots into them, spanning the roadway.
It would seem that older arches had the same basic design but I’ve no idea if they were erected on the ground horizontally and then hoisted upright using ropes (which was presumably more labour-intensive but less technological than the cherry pickers employed today).
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carrickally,
I’m not looking to open up a second front i.e. an Arches Commisson to go with the Parades Commission but do they need planning permission?
re. “Our bandstands were made during down-time in the Yard. ”
Acccording to wiki the titanic was luanched on the 31st May – that would put it in the marching (and arch/bandstand building) season – presumably they were not in the habit of borrowing bits intended for the ships?
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Was there reason Ireland was handed not one but two parliaments.
Rather than question Terence O’Neill or Ian Paisley ask the North was handed a parliament.
Unless i missed something the Ulster Unionists never asked for a parliament.
London never handed Scotland a Home Rule parliament even though a majority of voters said YES in 1979.
In relation to the North, London walked away in the early 1920s.
And when the balloon went up in 1969, guess what, the file for Northern Ireland was found hidden underneath the file for London Taxi Cabs.
London copped out big time.
I’m surprised unionists go along with the present set up.
What are they hoping for.
Majority rule by unionists is gone forever.
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At the end of the day, the Orange Order is indeed a broad church AND a common brotherhood. Any notion of accomodation betweenOrangemen and the average Catholic depends on commonality.
Take..Ruth Patterson. Or Willie Fraser.
Does the average Orangeman have more in common with them…or me?
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FJH, you’ve answered your own question – broad church and average Orangeman don’t stack up.
I’d probably have nothing in common with them or yourself, it least not politically!
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Oh I dont know about that.
At the end of the day, wearing the collarette indicates a common outlook.
Respectable Orangemen (you might have been one of them) from Fermanagh and West Tyrone who just wanted a quiet life in Newtownbutler and Dromore were forced to prove how muchthey had in common with the Spirit of Drumcree people or….me obsrving from Ballyoran Park on the Garvaghy Road. I saw BillyWright. Luckily he didnt see me.
The Orangemen and bandsmen on Newtownards Road seem to have rather more in common with the bandsman urinating against St Matthews than with the parishioners. Otherwise they would surely have dialled the PSNI before now.
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They always say FJH that two people in different groups up north can be more similar to each other than to people in the same group and decency is not the monopoly of one group or another. Many people say that there is more that unites people in NI than divides them. Carrickally will be able to say based on first hand experience, but it seems reasonable to speculate that many of the decent OO guys up North would have personally intervened if they had seen that urination happening, and intervened to stop it. I am sure that they do intervene daily with others in the OO to try to bring about fair play.
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Factual,
Fair comment but two points and I am not answering for FJH or Carrickally here.
1. Why is it reasonable to speculate that “the decent OO guys up North would have personally intervened if they had seen that urination happening” There is no evidence of this happening. If there is please point me in that direction.
2. “I am sure that theye do intervene daily with others in the OO to try to bring about fair play.” I am glad you are sure of this but this is this is exactly why there is a problem. I am not sure. In fact I have no evidence whatsoever of it, quite the contrary. My ears are open
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Hi Bangordub at my school we did an exchange event with a state school north of the border (most of the folks at the school were protestants) and they said they thought this was the way things worked – that some people in the OO had to be (and were) “moderated” by wiser heads on the whole up north.
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Factual,
Hi, It’s a good thing doing a school exchange but as you age, as some of us have, you realise that the idealism of youth yields to the pragmatism and realpolitic of adulthood. This in turn leads to the grumpiness and suspicion of the elder generations. I am not old by any means but the trick is to generate change energised by youthful enthusiasm balanced with wisdom that comes from experience. Does that make any sense?
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Factual, I should add that as you, like me, went to school in Dublin, there was no awareness of catholic or protestant religious observance. Did you find that?
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That does make sense.
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I wouldn’t have fancied interrupting someone in mid-flow; I’d have been wet all day! In all seriousness though, most good bands don’t allow drinking before parades and so the chances that this is some boozed-up lout piddling on the boundary wall at St Matthew’s was either 1) unlikely or 2) he was doing it provocatively.
I’d actually go with 1), not because I’m defending him but I would think that I’d get stagefright to do it in public. From what I remember of the day, and from experience over the last number of years, there are more portaloos around now than when I was younger and you literally had to nip up an entry for a Jimmy Riddle.
As BD and some of the other posters are aware, I challenged that very day what I believed to be bad behaviour; a racist zealot was walking around as bold as brass and I hope that I made my views clear to him.
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Well said, and yes, you did, to your credit, challenge the behaviour of those who discredited your organisation that day. The glaring problem is that the OO did not.
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Encouraging post, Carrickally.
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Weren’t the original headquarters of the Orange Order in Dublin?
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Yes, in Dawson Street.
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Hello having read the above i can only commend you and the work you organisation does in northen ireland as you say try to reach out to everyone but sadly you will encounter problems on the road with people of a different persuasion i e sinn fein but stick to what you do best look after the protestant families but dont forget the wider community which i know you will also assist the best way to turn the enemy into your friend is not to give them any excuses to pin blame on you but to show the good work our organisation does an English brother for more than fifty years
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