“The Union is safe”
How many times have you heard that particular mantra recently?
A few years ago I had a very interesting conversation with a colleague who was the number 1 in our large multinational company on the health and safety front. He was, and still is, a sound Man. His words, over a few pints away from the office were very prophetic. I, being me, had a rant about the increased restrictions being imposed upon employees due to the fears imposed by H&S dictats. He agreed. He also predicted something and bear in mind that this was a few years ago.
He predicted that risk aversion would lead to inertia. People would simply not take risks. He actually predicted that the safe option would become the norm and as a result companies would suffer. He also predicted that it would become normal for people to lie purely to protect themselves. In essence they would deny principle to enhance personal protection. Does the “Cover your ass” e-mail ring any bells?
Think about that.
“The Union is safe”
It is usually uttered by unionist politicians or journalists prior to a speech about how nationalists are converting en mass to a pro union position on the “constitutionalist question”. Apparently, according to unionists, the future of the north eastern six counties will, after all, be decided by those of a nationalist background according to Peter Robinson today. Well blow me down with a big feather duster. Perhaps the point of this little blog has some relevance after all.
Of course Peter has known for some time that the premise of this blog and others is important. Hence the pathetic outreach nonsense. Today we had the entirely predictable nonsense where loyalists totally ignored the parades commission determination not to play provocative songs outside a place of catholic worship. Again. Is anyone here surprised?
As usual unionism is still fighting the battles of years past. Things have moved on and bypassed them yet again. I have thought about blogging on the glorification of the UVF and comparing that with the insistence upon conceptions such as “surrender” and their definition of the term “terrorism”. The comparisons with their horror at the thought of an IRA shrine at Long Kesh. That would be too simple to be honest. I have simply given up on mainstream unionism being capable of entering or engaging in a grown up conversation about our future. I emphasise the word “our”. (I absolutely do not include individual unionist people in that, particularly my friends who read and sometimes comment here)
I think it is time to move on beyond this and there have been some very interesting blogs on other sites along these lines recently. Sinn Fein have being making noises about an All Ireland referendum. Hmmm. My opinion is that the mechanics need to be fleshed out first. That is starting to happen and it is very interesting
I’m well on for that and I propose to blog tomorrow on details. Not my details but those proposed by others who, like me, are not party political, but concerned for what will become of us all in coming days.
My friend, and he is still a friend, was right. The difference is I and others have nothing to fear. Unlike professional politicians we are free to say what we think and explore the possibilities.
The Union as unionists understand it is no more. It is time for their politicians to stop lying to them and it is time for engagement. That is why the BCC flag issue was such a shock to their system. I have been accused on occasion of being a bit of a lecturer. If I am I apologise but am I wrong?
"We in coming days may be" 
If you want to focus in on the DUP and their playing to the tribal margins as in the flag issue then fine go right ahead. A lot if not a majority of people who are in favour of a union agree with that (myself included). But make it abundantly clear that DUP does not reflect the thinking and attitudes of a great swathe of average pro-union Joe Soaps. The flag issue wasn’t a shock to mosts system, plenty are content with designated days, a fair and balanced position.
You are right as well that the old union is dead – ie Paisleys union. A lot of pro-union mindsets are very comfortable with this. And what willhopefully emerge is a better soft union.
If people from a Catholic or nationalist community background can still choose the benefits of a UK union whilst the DUP (and SF) carry on with their divisive antics, then such people should be even more comfortable in NI due course.
PS As was said on another thread Im completely in favour of secular and integrated schools – leave the partaking of religion for the home and the church!
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Alphadale,
My point is exactly that I don’t believe the DUP reflect the broad opinions of unionists. I appreciate that you agree with that. My point is that the likes of the DUP and the UUP have deceived their own voters for so long and continue to do so. Here’s a thought for you. My flag is not respected and not flown even where the majority of people have allegience to it in this part of the world. I know that the default answer to that is that the north is part of the UK. The trouble with that argument is that when it was put to a democratic vote we ended up with partition. That’s a bit like saying if Derry or Newry vote to rejoin the republic (And Enniskillen did btw) you will repartition the north. It is an increasingly ridiculous argument. There is currently a situation where 1.5 out of 6 counties have a unionist majority. I’m still waiting for any unionist to come out and say lets talk about this?
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I think a fair number of DUP voters , not all, are happy enough with way the DUP get on, and it is to this more hardline intransigent part of the wider pro-union spectrum that they represent. UUP as well but to a somewhat lesser extent, we’ll see how that party will fare in due course. A lot of pro-union folk refuse to have anything to do with them and don’t vote.
Your thing about repartition – repartition is never seriously discussed as a possible option (chat forums don’t count), Northern Ireland is 100 years old, it has a permancy about it and even a lot of Catholic Comm background people are happy enough with the border as formed 100 years ago.
Ha 1.5 counties – where did you draw the partition??
We can talk about improving Northern Ireland for sure, but only a minority are interested in a UI that’s the awkward reality for dogmatic republicans, whats there to talk about?? (
And anyway, you say you want to talk of the future but all too readily fall back on the dinosaur reterick of republican dogma or highlighting something that happened 100 years ago, not very progressive.
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BD,
“Apparently, according to unionists, the future of the north eastern six counties will, after all, be decided by those of a nationalist background according to Peter Robinson today.”
As has been suggested previously here and on Ulster is doomed the demographics suggest a crossover at some point from the majority Prod background to majority to majority Fenian background. I would guess that most professional ‘demographers’ if there is such a thing – would agree with this – though quite when the ‘some point’ will arrive is not clear with immigration and emigration muddying the statistical waters.
It is at this point that statistics exits and ideological politics come in to play. To summarise the 2 political interpetations – (many) Unionists believe (or say they believe) that Cultural Nationalists will not vote for a UI becuase the likelyhood is that Britain will remain a wealthier country than Ireland and people will probably vote with their pocket whilst (many) political Nats believe (or say they believe) that cultural factors and the historic desire for a UI will be enough to convince cultural Nats to get rid of the border.
As a Nationalist myself I hoped for a much better ‘result’ form the question on identity in the census but am not convinced by the political arguements of either side given the difficulty in ‘proving’ one theory over another.
What we probably can say with a degree of certainty is that a UI refrendum would be compreshensively defeated on both sides of the border unless and until there is a period of clear economic security in the South i.e. the adminsitrators have departed and the country is not relying on emigration as a safety valve. That could be some time and – again extremely diffiuclt to judge the timeframe.
And we can also probably say with a degree of certainty that Unionists like nothing more than public claims by SF that they want a referendum knowing they just look foolish in claiming they want something that would most probably result in humiliation for Republicans.
This blog provides a very useful basis for discussion of the demogrpahic facts but does not confront the uncomfortable issues raised by Robinson and the current difficulties of arguing for a UI with the south in an economic mess – and has also been extremely unconvincing on trying to explain away the awful results in the census on national identity.
The Orange state is now gone but it is not clear that we are heading for a UI any time soon and suggesting that we are without the evidence (and Nat backround majority on its own is not enough) just sounds like the optimistic bluffing of SF.
Equally, repeating the mantra of Unionists misdeeds or analysing the behaviour of irate Prods jumping up and down over flags and traditional routes is really just a distraction form the awkward question we need to be asking about our own difficulties – how can we be sure or make sure that ‘Nationalists’ live up to their ideological label.
re. “Perhaps the point of this little blog has some relevance after all.”
The horrible reality is that sensible Unionists are – post census – sleeping more soundly in their (British) beds, and probably all the more so, when SF and ‘optimistic’ blogs insist on telling them that their political world is about to end.
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As usual you take a black and white view on things. Horseman’s prediction was always death by a thousand cuts. 12th July is still a public holiday.
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re. “As usual you take a black and white view on things.”
On the substantive point I said this
“but am not convinced by the political arguements of either side given the difficulty in ‘proving’ one theory over another.”
Hardly black and white.
If you are referrring to “The Orange state is now gone” – 2 points, SF in power and the Parades Comission.
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Clearly some aspects of ‘the Orange state’ are still with us, the 12th of July holiday being the most obvious.
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well, groupings are entitled to have their cultural day. I’d like to see it reformed and improved, but I’d like the twelfth to still be with us.
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So Peter Robinson has conceded that people who are ‘culturally Irish’ will preserve the union – but only in 50 years time! This is beyond the lifetimes of most of his audience – so no need to make concessions to people who are ‘culturally Irish’ now! Political unionism can keep fighting its longstanding culture war against things Irish.
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I think the Union has time on its side. This is quite a novel view (it’s usually the case that a UI is inevitable) but let me explain. I read the guest posts on FC’s blog last night and, while I disagree with most of it and the couching of partitionist terms especially, what I did detect was a degree of acceptance that NI is becoming a much more comfortable place for all. As our wee country approaches its 150th anniversary and Protestants (by denominations and culturally) are in a minority, that won’t matter because so many middle class Catholics will be safe in the Union, which will still include Scotland, that for reasons economic and, well, economic, they won’t want to leave. In a way, your friend’s inertia argument will have won out in terms of the constitutional question.
Yes there will always be the idealists on both sides; the united Irelanders are really no different than the not-an-inchers, it’s just they’ve got a better PR machine and change is much sexier than resistance. Yes there will be periods when even the more middle of the road groups think out loud that enough is enough; but being placid types, they will simply grumble for a few weeks and then go back to shopping, booking holidays and having affairs.
I’ve said before that Robinson was going down the right track with currying favour with economic Unionists before the flag protests somewhat derailed the plan. He’s probably damaged goods now, if he wasn’t always, but I’d say he has laid the groundwork for a new, younger Unionism that is confident in its place and is happy with a Northern Ireland first identity that will embrace soft nationalists.
I foresee a debate in the next decade about flag and anthem, followed by a compromise within two decades that will have the flax flower very prominent in the former and hopefully Phil Coulter nowhere near the latter.
The union is here to stay but there are roles to be played within that; a NI identity that can be shared is a goal that must be achieved but only through respect. Imagine the day when the Twelfth of July parade in Belfast passes along streets that have bilingual signs on every corner. Fear Feirsteach should appreciate that, as he enjoys his two days’ public holiday in the summer of 2025 (when, incidentally, I’ll have been an Orangeman for 30 years).
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Ally,
Your post merited a more conidered response than the one I gave above.
“I think the Union has time on its side.”
Insert the word some and I’ll agree with you (and Sammy!)
“I’d say he has laid the groundwork for a new, younger Unionism that is confident in its place and is happy with a Northern Ireland first identity that will embrace soft nationalists.”
But Robbo’s response to the flag crisis he was partly responisble for whipping up demonstrates that unionism is anything but confident. It’s as paranoid and insecure as it’s ever been – and then some.
” Imagine the day when the Twelfth of July parade in Belfast passes along streets that have bilingual signs on every corner.”
So when is political unionism going to ‘reach out’ / call off the cultural war against those of us who are culturally Irish? Last I checked unionist councillors were getting their knickers in a knot over a Nollaig Shona Duit (Happy Christmas) sign at City Hall.
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Fear Feirsteach,
re. “So when is political unionism going to ‘reach out’ / call off the cultural war against those of us who are culturally Irish? Last I checked unionist councillors were getting their knickers in a knot over a Nollaig Shona Duit (Happy Christmas) sign at City Hall.”
Probably around the same time as SF stop trying to get the Union flag taken down i.e. Never.
Outreach is just what the parties say as public relations – if they adopted outreach they would lose votes to a party that didnt.
The only party that practices what it preaches on ‘letsgetalongery’ (as FJH calls it) is Alliance – and that is why they get so few votes.
re. Time and the Union.
A large discovery of Oil (which we may have had) or CeltIc Tiger v2.0 would change the attitude of Fenian Uncle Toms fairly quickly – and potentially a swathe of middle class Prods as well.
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Peter Robinson said the union would come to be dependent on the votes of the ‘culturally Irish.’ I asked a legitimate question: when will political unionism call off its (centuries old) cultural war against things Irish.
This was not a cue for whataboutery.
I invite you to spot the contradiction in your term ‘fenian Uncle Toms’.
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Robbo saw the chance to destroy the Alliance in his constituency. A real vendetta move (which he’s not afraid to make) and one that obscured the bigger picture. I’d say he thought it would pass quicker than it did and that it has tarnished him now. Mind you, with some of the other things he and others have done in the past, he’s not afraid to get a little bit of dirt on his shirt because he has seen that, in the medium to long term, he has succeeded.
The cultural war, as you term it, is very much a two-way street. Your language, our parades would probably be the best way to describe it. It will be settled when both are respected, tolerated and not used as weapons to mark out territory.
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Ah, but the leader of unionism now admits that the union is dependent on the support of the ‘culturally Irish’ (albeit in 50 years’ time rather than ten). So surely it is political unionism’s interest to call of its centuries old cultural war against things Irish (not just the language).
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With regard to Robbo’s move against Alliance, it showed off his fascistic instincts. I believe Carrick witnessed its own Kristallnacht. Make excuses for it if you wish.
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Carrick,
‘I read the guest posts on FC’s blog last night and, while I disagree with most of it and the couching of partitionist terms especially, what I did detect was a degree of acceptance that NI is becoming a much more comfortable place for all’
Why don’t you come on over and give us your thoughts on the posts sure? Would be great to hear from someone on the other side of the fence sure.
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Will do.
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tri-lingual sign posts is the way forward Ally, get tha hamely tongue in frae tha cowl!
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Ally,
You might wan’t to consider dropping that ‘our wee country’ balls. It ain’t anymore.
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Have we grown? 😉
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Its a turn of phrase FF, chill out.
Whoever wants to refer to it such , whatever their hue, can do so.
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The union will be safe as long as the English are prepared to tolerate the Scots and the strange people in the north who not only consider themselves more British than Finchley they apparently consider themselves more British than the British.
.
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The Union relies on the good faith of the English, and always has done. As long as we (Scots, Welsh and Irish/N. Irish) don’t annoy them too much, they’ll let it rumble along. Remember, even during the Anglo-Irish war, the English didn’t get riled up so much that they exacted some Cromwellian wrath across southern Ireland.
How do you rate Britishness? I’d say the Falkland Islanders would be up there as uber-Brits, more British than the British. So would Gibraltarians. Where identity is threatened, that’s where it tends to be strongest. I thought everyone on here would have “got” that?
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Carickally
“even during the Anglo-Irish war, the English didn’t get riled up so much that they exacted some Cromwellian wrath across southern Ireland.”
Eh, I would suggest some further research on your part regarding this. For example the following is a quote from a Lt. Col. Smyth in June 1920
“Should the order (”Hands Up”) not be immediately obeyed, shoot and shoot with effect. If the persons approaching (a patrol) carry their hands in their pockets, or are in any way suspicious-looking, shoot them down. You may make mistakes occasionally and innocent persons may be shot, but that cannot be helped, and you are bound to get the right parties some time. The more you shoot, the better I will like you, and I assure you no policeman will get into trouble for shooting any man.”
Lt Col Smyth was subsequently a victim of his own philosophy
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In fairness, Smyth wasn’t English. He was from Banbridge.
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But if you’re looking for English people and plans for Cromwellian revenge, Margaret Thatcher fits the bill. Fortunately her civil servants stopped her!
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“I’d say the Falkland Islanders would be up there as uber-Brits, more British than the British”.
Are they? I’d say they are interested in whatever money they can get.
My cousin served in the Faulklands after the war.
RAF
On the men’s days off he tried to organise cross-country hikes to keep them fit and stave off bordedom.
Faulklands farmers demanded payment to allow them to hike across their land.
Loyalty to the half-crown or the Crown?
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Lol one farmer!
I think the world and his wife knows the British identity of the Falkland Islanders.
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No excuses from me, FF. It’s not my style.
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If the union is to become on dependent on the support of the ‘culturally Irish’ why does political unionism persist with its cultural war against things Irish?
Surely this is self-defeating.
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At a guess, I would say because there is no consensus on what should be promoted on both sides.
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Is it not because hostility and contempt for things Irish is an integral part of the ‘Orange culture’, which political unionism is incapable of divorcing itself from?
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I by and large agree with your initial point FF, especially as you used the term ‘political unionism’ therefore recognising the nuances that exist.
But in answer those who are ‘culturally Irish’ but yet pro-union can obviously see beyond the bullshit of the DUP (and SF) and see that the union is so much more than the way the DUP get on.
Your latter point, I’d say that the DUP and OO leadership have not cottoned to the fact that many Catholics are actually pro-union or apolitical, never mind follow through on to how this should make them behave in practical terms.
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“Your latter point, I’d say that the DUP and OO leadership have not cottoned to the fact that many Catholics are actually pro-union or apolitical, never mind follow through on to how this should make them behave in practical terms.”
They simply don’t care. British = Protestant and that’s it. Every year they ram home the point. As far as I’m concerned they’re welcome to it.
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When and if there will be a border poll will be decided by the Viceroy.
Orange culture will resist ‘Irish’ culture probably indefintiely but sensible Prods (how many are there?) wont e.g. attendance at Irish rugby games etc.
The threat to Irish unity increases the more that British’ Ulster acommodate ‘Irishness’ and it will be interesting (and worrying) to see at what point that thinking seeps into the DUP et al.
carrickally’s comment
“Imagine the day when the Twelfth of July parade in Belfast passes along streets that have bilingual signs on every corner.”
that scenario should arguably be far more worrying for Nats than Orangemen continuing with their current sectarian carryon – as Fenian Uncle Toms(I use the term advisedly) will feel all the more comfortable continuing inside the British state.
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“that scenario should arguably be far more worrying for Nats than Orangemen continuing with their current sectarian carryon – as Fenian Uncle Toms(I use the term advisedly) will feel all the more comfortable continuing inside the British state.”
Sectarian shock trollery. Zzzzzz..
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FF seems to be resorting to a bunker mentality at the minute. Anyhoo, Orange culture is resisting Irish due to the attacks made upon it; it’s far easier to do the turtle dance rather than stick your head out and say; right, let’s sit down and talk with these people who clearly want to see us disappear. To an extent, and on a personal level, that’s why I’m here, as those of you who remember my first post will know.
I have no problems with the Irish language, bar my absolute inability to read it unless it’s anglicised (all those mh and bh have me flustered!) and the gut feeling that it’s a political tool.
Now there are many here who no doubt think the exact same thing, in reverse, about Orangeism. It makes no sense to them, they can make fun out of it because they don’t understand it and they feel it’s a political tool. See that mirror I held up, to myself, and them?
So unless you take me at face value in what I say (oh, and sm, you can have the traitor garden centre rugger types, I’ll stick to the football!!), you’ll not get an insight into a unionist mind and likewise I will be none the wiser on republicanism.
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Ally,
You’re avoiding the second part of my question. Perhaps my fault for bad punctuation.
If the union is to become on dependent on the support of the ‘culturally Irish’ why does political unionism persist with its cultural war against things Irish?
Surely this is self-defeating??
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FF, it is self defeating.
Lets see what the Basil and John party can come up with
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I agree with Sammy initial point.
To be honest – forget the political leaders – a large portion of the people are already acting and thinking and believing in a cross community manner, and in fact think of NI as ‘one community’
To the republicans and /or nationalists out there – what is so wrong with this scenario that a portion of the Cath Comm background already seem to be rolling with – a fair and equal NI within a soft union??
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Let’s see if the A5 gets built, eh.
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“Eh, I would suggest some further research on your part regarding this. For example the following is a quote from a Lt. Col. Smyth in June 1920” I won’t burn you too much on that one, BD!
Whilst you can point to the actions of English soldiers/auxies in Ireland, I was thinking more along the policy lines from Westminster. There was never the will to launch a full-scale operation against the dissidents of the day, due in no small part to the exhaustion of the government after WW1, Versailles and having to deal with the rest of the Empire, including an Irishman’s lunacy in Amritsar.
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Do none of youse ‘uns work during the day? and in a job where ur not allowed to piss about on mobile computers/phones? Might reply later on this eve
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Even this prod is a sponger!
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Ooops wasn’t having a go at anyone whose unfortunate enough to be out of work at the mo didn’t mean it that way, just surprise at the volume at messaging going on, and if you are in work how do you get away with it?
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Returning to the substantive point made by Robbo – that demographics alone will not be enough to swing the Fenian-background Uncle Toms. Robbo sholud not be beating the Orange drum but rather the state/ integrated education drum – that is one area where Unionist political ideology is more progressive and sensible than Nationalism and should appeal to a section of Nationalsim, like myself, who have no time for the Catholic church.
Robbo’s arguement presents difficulties for Nationalism and needs to be met with something a bit better than listing the historical sins of badly-behaved-Prods and although I could not personally ever be reconciled to the union no matter how benelovent that does not appear ot be the case for some Fenian-background Uncle Toms.
I’m not sure the full implications of the GFA have been worked through yet – for me it was a genuine attempt by Britian to find a settlement and heal what Nats see as the wounds of partiton and it certainly makes the Perfidious-Albion v Immaculatus-Hibernicus view of history so prevalent in these parts all the more difficult to sustain – and that is no bad thing.
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When you say ‘Fenian-background Uncle Toms’, Sammy, do you mean people who are sympathetic to the union from a Catholic background or do you mean people who are sympathetic to the union from a physical-force republican background? Or is it just a case of using deliberately offensive labels for shock value? Either way, I believe it detracts from any serious point you are trying to make.
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FF,
re. “Sectarian shock trollery. Zzzzzz..”.
Tempting as it may be to respond in kind – I will just put this down to you (as usual) not grasping what is being said.
re.
“Or is it just a case of using deliberately offensive labels for shock value?”
I suggest you go back and read the earlier thread on terminology- and also have a little think about it.
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I have thought about it and I’m still not sure what you mean by ‘Fenian-background Uncle Toms’, though I do note you added the word ‘background’ after I queried the term. If you mean pro-Union Catholics why not just say that – instead of petulantly misusing the word ‘Fenian’ – but don’t blame others for failing to understand your strange ways.
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re. “I have thought about it”.
ah signs of progress.
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Maybe you should stop gratutiously using the language of loyalist sectarians. Not all Catholics regard themselves as ‘fenians’. Indeed many are rightly offended at being described in such terms. Just like you are offended by the word moron.
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re. “Maybe you should stop gratutiously using the language of loyalist sectarians. ”
This was already explained in detail to you on another thread – and not just by me. I’m afraid more reading for you is recommended.
re. “Just like you are offended by the word moron”
A less generous spirit than myself could suggest a number of terms that you would be offended by … but ill settle for you just missing the point(again).
p.s. This is getting pretty boring.
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You’re the one who conciously chooses to use provocative, misleading and ahistorical language. Yes, it’s boring having to point this out.
Still no closer to solving the riddle of these ‘Fenian Uncle Toms’. Perhaps you should communicate clearly 😉
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The union is very safe at the moment but the big elephant in the room is that people keep saying it is safe because of how great the British economy and NHS are – both of which are on their knees but nobody seems to have the sense to point this out, SF would rather waste time stealing the Alliance policy of duplication costs money so lets have one of everything and that is pretty much the beginning and end of their UI pitch, jeez glad to see all those years in prison were well spent coming up with that ingenious argument.
Carickally not the best line of attack to counter accusations against the British army during the Anglo-irish war with Amritsar yes an Irish man might have whitewashed the Jallianwala Bagh massacre but Im pretty sure he and the Ghurkas and British and Indian officers who carried out the shootings were all serving for the er British army
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boondock,
re. “both of which are on their knees but nobody seems to have the sense to point this out”
We happen to have the adminsitrators(IMF et al ) in at the moment – telling the British that they are badly off doesn’t look to sensible at the moment.
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boondock, carrickally,
re. “including an Irishman’s lunacy in Amritsar.”
…one of many Irish Unionists who have disgraced their political ideology.
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Just using Amritsar as an example of bad behaviour, it so happened that the Irish were rather prominent in Punjab at that time; check out what some of the Connaught Rangers got up to, just down the road in Jallandhar (about half an hour from my home, incidentally).
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I don’t know about Jallandhar but I spent an hour or so in Jallianwalah Bagh. Not a fan of empire, even though some of my ancestors were implicated in it.
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To FF, couldn’t respond last night properly as I was using an iPad (detestable device); the cultural war as you put it is seen in the context that Irish language has been a vehicle for republicans. It’s easier to lump everyone in together with that classification than realise that there are people who play GAA, have an interest in Irish and like to dance with hands by sides who are not republicans.
I’d say you probably see me as a bowler-hatted bigot who loves nothing better than singing the Sash outside every chapel I can find, in between painting kerbstones, burning bonfires and drinking buckfast.
Perception is powerful, it’s time to open up and break down what we think we see.
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Ally,
So if ‘culturally Irish’ people are going to save the union why does political unionism continue its (short-sighted) cultural war against them? Is it because defence of the Orange Order and its agressive practices comes before the interests of the union – cos that’s the way it looks to me!?
Are you a unionist first or an Orangeman first?
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An Orangeman first. A few years ago, I was going to emigrate to Toronto. I was ready to transfer to an Ontario lodge. No matter where I go, I will be an Orangeman but to be a Unionist in Canadian terms has no relevance. I would have been a Canadian, and proud to be so (it’s a great country). However, I am very proud to be British, a PIO as well but always an Orangeman.
Orangeism is undergoing a massive internal dialogue at the minute; the issue of outreach is very much to the fore. As with any complex change, we have to make sure that we also perform inreach too. This will reduce difficulties in the long run with the direction that Orangeism will take and make sure we don’t suffer from dissidents – it might surprise you to know that the republican model is studied on our side.
The DUP must work towards a shared future – and that’s why the Unionist Forum is massively important – that means no-one, or certainly as few as the state can bear, is left behind.
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(Fortunately or) unfortunately a lot of unionist politicians are also Orangemen first. They place the wellbeing of their cult before the interests of society as a whole. There is no likelihood of this changing short of national reunification.
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That very interesting and informative Ally, I never really considered Orangemen might put Orangeism first and unionism second. I kind of thought Orangeism was saw by those in it as a means to maintain the union and the link to the Crown (amongst other things)?
I guess its relative though, if in terms of importance to you you scored Orangeism at 10 out of 10 would unionism be only slightly beind on 9 and a half??
Good to hear about the internal dialogue, lets hope it ends up with entirely progressive and liberalizing results!
Also good to see that the republican model is being studied. The amount of Community Development work that goes on and has gone on in nationalist communities is highly impressive.
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Actually I think this is very interesting and informative also Ally.
I think it is a good thing to hear of the internal dialogue but I have always felt that the OO is it’s own worst enemy, primarily because of its refusal to engage in a wider sense with others. That, naturally, encourages the sense of a secretive society with an unsavoury agenda. Given the history of the order and its undoubted influence within unionism can you understand why it’s public image is so poor?
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I’m old school, ad; funnily enough, my dad has always described himself as an Orangeman before anything else, I guess it’s in the blood. That doesn’t mean I don’t have the best interests of the greatest number of citizens in Northern Ireland at heart, though. Don’t think that I’m so self-centred in my position that I will not compromise.
So if orangeism is a perfect ten for me, unionism would come in at probably an eight. Northern irishism would be in between, along with a strong sense of the commonwealth; maybe it’s the ties to Canada and India that bring this thread in. But enough about me – is republicanism and Irish unity the absolute be all and end all, the raisin d’être as stated before, of most of the rest of the posters on here?
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Yes bd, a lot of it has to do with the attitude that we know we’re not the bad guys, therefore we don’t have to tell anyone something that should be self-evident. That’s been changing slowly but surely, including an educational drive internally.
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OK, and I’m letting a lot of questions go with the flow here, but can you sum up in say a paragraph, exactly what the OO exists for in 2013?
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As there have been recent guest posts over at FootballCliches and here, would anyone be prepared to extend a similar invitation to Carrickally? As the blogroll on the right (bar Slugger) are all singing from a UI/nationalist/republican perspective I would find it hugely interesting to read a blog from a dyed in the wool Orangeman.
These blogs manage to rise above the general level of Internet debate/name calling (no mean feat given the subjects under discussion) so might it be worth offering up a blog from someone on the ‘other side’ so to speak?
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Consider the invitation extended RJC (and Carrickally)
Carrickally would need to e-mail it to me for inclusion but I would be favourably inclined to publish it, usual rules would, of course, apply, decent grammar etc 😉
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can you publish it in orange ink?
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I certainly can if the author so wishes!
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I’d be more than happy to do a wee article bd, perhaps a bit longer than a paragraph about what the OO stands for in 2013?
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Excellent, that would be hugely interesting.
I’ll drop you a wee e-mail 🙂
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Attempting to march where it’s not welcome? Playing offensive songs outside Catholic churches? Putting flags up lampposts? Consorting with paramilitaries?
Ally, by all means put lipstick on the pig.
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It amazes me that Robinson, unionist parties, Villiers, brit govt, i.e the opponents of Irish Unification, are so considerate of irish republicans that they would pass up a chance to put the boot into the enemy? Never mind the ‘fleg’ carry on, a referendum rejection of Irish Unity would be more meaningful to unionists wouldnt it??? They should be on the streets demanding a referendum. After all the ‘union is safe’, so what is there to lose?
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Finally someone round here gets it,
Not that it will change much.
The fact that the most successful political party of the last decade or so (SF) wants a referendum and the other dominant political party of the last decade or so (DUP) is vehemently opposed to it, should tell the political anoraks around here something.
But like political anoraks everywhere they will miss the point.
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